Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate

[jkdberlin]

Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate

One instructor who has tasted the best of both Bruce Lee worlds says
forget about what is or what isn't: just take the best of each and
become a great martial artist.

Originally Printed in the 25th Anniversary Collector's Issue of
Bruce Lee Magazine. Written by Burton Richardson



Original vs. Concepts - Which is the better approach?

This question has been looked at over and over again the last few
years without much progress. I believe that just as in any other
area of art, sports, or technology, we can go beyond the old way of
thinking and find a better way. For clarity, let's first take a look
at what the "original JKD" people think, at what the "JKD" concepts"
people think, and what the two camps think of each other.

Original JKD is comprised of those things that Bruce Lee actually
did himself, his techniques, his training methods, and so on. A
common phrase from this camp is, "If Bruce didn't do it, it's not
JKD." They tend to have a healthy reverence for Lee and everything
that he accomplished. They have great confidence in the art that Lee
founded, and have considerable pride in teaching the methods
developed by the founder. They believe in practicing the basics of
Jun Fan jeet Kune do with diligence to hone the skills of the
artists.

Many in this camp look at the concepts people as a group of wayward
martial artists who think that accumulation is the key to
proficiency. They think that concepts people will practice any art
regardless of whether or not it is useful, and that most concepts
people think, "The more techniques I know the better I must be."

Jeet Kune do concepts practitioners believe the art Sigung Lee
passed on is good, but there is much more to learn in the martial
arts realm. Concepts people think that by studying different arts, a
wider scope of understanding will be gained, and the student will be
better off in the long run. Knowing more techniques is like having
extra insurance in case you end up I a bad situation. They also have
a strong reverence for Bruce Lee, but they realize that he was only
able to study a small portion of the arts that are available today.
They also believe that a martial artist should be well-rounded in
his approach, and the only way to accomplish this is to study a wide
variety of arts.


Who's Right? Who's Wrong?

Many concepts people think the "original" practitioners are closed-
minded, and limited in their martial options. Some concepts people
also think that since they practice Jun Fan jeet Kune do themselves,
it only makes sense that their approach better prepares an
individual for a combative situation. If a concepts person knows the
same things as an original person, plus knows other arts too, then
the concepts person has the advantage.

Obviously, I am making wide generalizations here, and every
individual practitioner is different, but this is some of the
prevalent thinking on both sides of the issue. What we all want to
know is, which side is right? Which approach is better? Actually, I
don't think that is the question. I think what most of us really
want to know is, "What should I do to become the best martial artist
that I can become?" Isn't this the pertinent question? We want to
know if OJKD is better that JKDC to be sure that we are practicing
the best was that we can. From a fighter's point of view, how to
become the best of oneself is the only question that pertains to
martial arts training. IT doesn't matter if it is OJKD or JKDC as
long as we become better martial artists.

I have been very, very fortunate to have studied with Sifu Dan
Inosanto over the last 18 years. He is the best of all worlds in the
martial arts because he is a great teacher, technician, and training
in various arts under many different teachers. His teaching also is
on a very high level, because he encourages each student to find his
way. He will supply everything a person could need to go into any
aspect of the martial arts. He also encourages his students to study
with other instructors so they student will have different
perspectives on the arts. He encouraged me as I went down one
martial path, and he now encourages me since I have changed the
direction of my training and teaching.

For years I taught all aspects of various arts, from forms to
intricate techniques to the basic fighting drills. My Los Angeles
students enjoyed the training, as did my seminar students. As time
went on I entered various full-contact competitions, with and
without weapons, I began to reexamine my teaching approach. I
finally realized what my problem was- I didn't have a goal for my
training and teaching! I needed a goal to guide my training in a
particular direction, but I had to first decide what that direction
would be. I decided the most important aspect of the martial arts,
that thing that makes it martial arts, is to be able to defend
yourself in a life-threatening situation. I wrote out a goal for
myself and my students, and used it to guide my research, training
and teaching. It has shaped my expression of jeet Kune do. Here is
the goal. I hope you find it useful.


Establish A Goal

"You must be able to apply your art under extreme pressure, in all
ranges, with or without weapons, against one or more, armed or
unarmed, highly skilled aggressive opponents, in a variety of
environments."

This is the goal of the training and it guides me and keeps me on
track. I believe the underlying theme of jeet Kune do that makes it
unique is that the art must work on the street. Take a look at the
components of the goal and see if they make sense to you and your
training.

To be able to handle such a situation, you must be able to actually
apply your art. There is a big difference between looking good in
class and going for it in the street. In class you may like to work
with someone who has good energy, but in the street an attacker is
going to have the worst energy you can possible imagine. Instead of
giving you "good energy", he is going to try his best to foul up
anything you try. Our training must prepare us to deal with that
sort of frantic, hostile energy. The techniques you use must be
simple, effective techniques that have been proven to work under
adverse circumstances. Remember, knowledge is not power, that
ability to apply your knowledge is power.

To become a powerful martial artist you must be able to apply your
art. You must be able to handle the pressure of an aggressive
attack. If your training doesn't include dealing with heavy
attacking pressure, how do you expect yourself to automatically
adjust to high-pressure situation in the street? Be sure you
included drills in your training where you feel your partner
pressuring you, or create a training situation where you have to
deal with the nervousness that can hinder your performance.

You must be able to fight in all ranges of combat. Nobody can
predict which range a street fight will start in, or where it will
end up. You must be functional in all of the ranges, or after years
of training you may end up in a position that you are unfamiliar
with. You should be proficient in kicking range, hand range,
trapping range you should be able to throw an opponent, and you must
be able to fight on the ground. You may be a great stand-up fighter,
but what happens if you get tackled from behind by an opponent you
didn't see? How about a grappler who has to face more that one
opponent? If you want to have a fighting chance on the street, you
must be functional in all of the ranges.

Weaponry is a must as well. Once o the most natural things for an
irate human being to do is to pick something up and use it as a
weapon. If you want to understand how to defend against a weapon,
you should learn how to fight with a weapon. You should understand
the difference between fighting with and edge weapon and fighting
with a blunt impact weapon. If you know the weak points in your
attack with the weapon and you are used to the motion of the stick
or knife, you will have a much better chance of surviving an armed
attack. If the situation is really bad, you may need to improvise a
weapon to save your on skin.

Have you practiced against multiple opponents? Have you seen a mass
attack occur? If not, you better get to work. Mass attacks are a
common occurrence. You could be minding your own business when a
group of youngsters with nothing better to do decide that you are to
be the outlet for their rage. Multiple opponents are very difficult
to deal with, but you should at least practice the tactics that
could allow you to run to safety. Even in your one-on-one training,
you should factor in the chance that the guy your are fighting may
have friends on the way. This is why staying on your feet is
important. If his friends come around the corner, you can run. When
you grapple, you should try to choose positions that are easy to run
away from. If you are tangled up with an opponent, he can hold you
until his friend arrives to introduce his boot to your brain. Not
good. Always factor fighting against more than on opponent into your
training.


Expect The Worst

I always want to assume that any opponent I or a student of mine
faces is highly skilled in all of the ranges. IF you assume that the
person knows nothing, what happens if you go to the ground and find
out that he is a wrestling champ> You could make a careless mistake
and be finished. Much better to assume that the person is highly
skilled, do you very best, and win easily if the opponent isn't
skilled. The best way to avoid underestimating an opponent is to
assume that he is very good.

There are environmental considerations to take into account also.
Can you fight in the dark? Can you function when it is very noisy,
like in a nightclub. How about when the ground is slippery, or on a
hill, or in the snow, or in the water, or when you have lots of
clothing on, or when you are in a parking lot, or when you are
sitting in your car? You should try training in different
environments so you can more easily adapt to a situation in the real
world when conditions are less that optimal. So know that the goal
is, but what do we need to become functional? WE must have sound
techniques and employ proper training methods.

There are millions of possible techniques, but far fewer moves that
are probable to work against a highly skilled, aggressive opponent,
so where should we draw our base techniques from? I choose most of
mine from full-contact combat sports. Muay Thai, Valé tudo, boxing
and other combat sports put skilled competitors together to go
nearly all-out. They don't talk and theorize about fighting, they go
out and do it. You will see certain techniques being used over and
over again because they work well. I use these techniques, then add
all the foul tactics such as eye and groin strikes that are illegal
in the ring but perfectly acceptable in the street. The techniques
must be simple, and practical and must be practiced repeatedly to
become functional.

Most of the techniques I teach are those I have pulled off under
pressure, or techniques, which I know have been performed by someone
else under pressure. I want to teach a move that I believe is
practical, but I don't know of anyone actually doing it, I will tell
my students just that. This way I am honest with my teaching and I
feel good about staying true to my goal.

I take most of the basic training methods from combat sports. You
must have an efficient way of practicing your techniques that
simulate the combat conditions while keeping a margin of safety. If
you get hurt during training you are defeating the whole purpose of
martial arts training. You learn martial arts so that you can stay
healthy, so safety in training is a must. Training for combat sports
is designed to win the event and since our "event" is a streetfight
with no rules, we must alter drills to fit our needs. The main goal
in training is to build extremely strong basics in each range,
because the fighter with the strongest basics usually wins the bout.


Unlimited Potential

This is my expression of jeet Kune do. I call my group Jeet Kune Do
Unlimited because I don't want any of my students to become limited
in our thought process, and start to think that we have the "best"
way or the "only" way. I call what we do high-performance martial
arts because that is what it should be; martial arts that you can
perform at a high level of proficiency. Some people will like it.
Others will hate it, but that doesn't matter. The most important
thing is to be constantly improving.

I am happy with where the training is now, but I know it will get
better in the future as I and my research team of instructors
experience more training methods from different arts, cultures, and
fighters. I want to be the best I can be, and I want to help my
students and friends to do the same. Bruce Lee gave us a great
example by showing us what happens when a person sets a goal and
works on that goal with zeal.

Forget about whether "this" art is better than "that" art. Set your
goal, make sure it feels right to you. Then get to work on being the
best that you can be.

- End.

Grüsse

[matze83]

Zitat von jkdberlin Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate Forget about whether "this" art is better than "that" art. Set your goal, make sure it feels right to you. Then get to work on being the best that you can be.

WEISE GESPROCHEN!!

[QQQQ]

Vor langer Zeit gab Tim Tackett auf Video ähnliches und anderes von sich.

[jkdberlin]

Sehr informativer Beitrag

Grüsse

[QQQQ]

Weiss dein Freiseur davon?

[jkdberlin]

Zitat von QQQQ Weiss dein Freiseur davon?

Was oder wen du auch immer damit meinen magst...

Grüsse

[Mandrake]

Ich finds irgendwie interressant wie die gleichen Probleme innerhalb einer KK und Ausserhalb einer KK immer wieder auftreten, sich mit der zeit verscheiben und nach einiger zeit wieder aufkommen, nur das man sich komischer weise auf der anderen Seite des Schlachtfeldes wieder findet.

Ok, ich versuch mal zu erklären was ich meine, und entschuldige mich im Voraus für veralgemeinerungen und Fehler...

Bruce Lee trägt seine 'neuen' Ideen in die welt Hinaus und wird grundsätzlich von den Traditionelleren KK's wegen den unortodoxen, untraditionellen sichtweisen und Methoden kritisiert. Irgendwann etabliert sich Bruce mit JKD, nach seinem Tod gibt es auf einmal Concepts. Auf einmal findet sich JKD auf der seite der Traditionalisten wieder

Im Capoeira gab es etwas ähnliches mit den 2 Hauptstielen... Heutzutage gibt es allerdings auch schon neuere varianten mit denen das gleiche Spiel wieder beginnt.

Irgendwie scheint es ein ziemlich zentraler Konflikt in den KK's zu sein, wie und wann sie verändert werden soll. Ich fands als aussenstehender nur recht interressant das sogar in KK's die die Veränderung quasi in der Grundphilosphie haben genau das gleiche problem haben

[QQQQ]

Bruce Lee trägt seine 'neuen' Ideen in die welt Hinaus und wird grundsätzlich von den Traditionelleren KK's wegen den unortodoxen, untraditionellen sichtweisen und Methoden kritisiert. Irgendwann etabliert sich Bruce mit JKD, nach seinem Tod gibt es auf einmal Concepts. Auf einmal findet sich JKD auf der seite der Traditionalisten wieder

Nun gut, the show must go on, und dass am besten upgraded.

Spass beiseite, auch auf die Gefahr hin gelyncht zu werden, gebe ich folgendes zum Besten.


Um JKD in seiner ursprünglichen Form zu erhalten, geschweige den zu etablieren, wäre/ist das Engagement der zwei, drei Leute keineswegs ausreichend.

Ohne die Conceptologen wäre JKD vermutlich verschwunden. Selbst heute kommen die Conceptskritiker nicht aus dem Hintern.

Selbst wenn es für einige nach Haarspalterei klingt.
Klarzustellen ist, dass man zwischen Bruce Lee´s Unterrichtsstoff von der Seattle-Privatgruppe, dem des Seattle JFGF-Instituts, dem der Oakland- und LA Chinatown-Schulen und dem LA Backyard-JKD unterscheiden muss, welches Bruce beispielsweise im Einzelunterricht gelehrt hat. Da die Methode von Bruce Lee bis zuletzt so sehr verfeinert wurde, dass jeder die Unterschiede schon bei Seminaren erkennen und erfahren kann.

Bei allem Respekt, hat sich keiner die Frage gestellt warum die Concept Lehrer in den "Unterdisziplinen", also eigentlich in anderen Methoden als JKD trainineren müssen, um sich wiederum im JKD weiterzuentwickeln.

Im Conceptslager kommt es nicht selten vor dass ergänzend Boxen, WC, MT usw. traininert wird um es quasi Bruce`s Entwicklung des Systems gleichzutun, ein neues JKD zu entwickeln, das "personal" concept.

Aber wenn JKD trainiert würde, bräuchte es kein doppelgemoppel.

Das JKD baut die Fähigkeiten des einzelnen mit einem eigenständigen Box- und Trappingsystem auf. Darauf bezieht sich auch Tommy Carruthers, wenn er von dutzenden Box-Sparringseinheiten berichtet und zufügt, es sei eben doch kein Boxen.

Solange die menschliche Anatomie unverändert bleibt, verstehe ich die ständige Weiterentwicklung von JKD doch nicht als ewige Methode der Substitution. Sondern als die Verbesserung der Attribute, der Ökonomie, des Timings, der Kraft, der Geschwindigkeit usw. Ich schärfe meine Sinne und meine Waffen.



Noch eins. Man sollte bei aller Loyalität zu eigenen JKD Linie(n) und deren Graduierungen nicht vergessen, dass eventuell ein Herb Jackson, ein Mito Uyehara (4 Teiler Bruce Lee Fighting Method) und Ted Wong möglicherweise mehr von dem bisschen JKD Know-How dass es eigentlich gibt vergessen haben, als andere glauben zu wissen.

Fazit: Bei Grappling und Waffen ist die Bezeichnung Concepts annehmbar.

[Grandizer]

Totaler Schwachsinn was der Autor schreibt. So was wie ein "Original JKD" gibt's gar nicht. Bruce Lee selbst sagte, sollte JKD sich jemals zu einem Stil mausern, soll man's aus dem Fenster werfen.
JKD ist und bleibt ein Konzept, das für jeden Kampfkünstler jeder Stilrichtung anwendbar ist.
Was Bruce gelehrt hat kann man als Jun Fan Gung Fu bezeichnen.

[jkdberlin]

Wow, du musst dich ja total auskennen, wenn du jemanden wie Burton Richardson als schwachsinnig bezeichnest.
Nun denn, als "Original JKD" bezeichnet man genau das, was von BL in den Jahren 1958 bis 1973 trainiert wurde. Wieso sollte es das nicht geben?

Grüsse

[Grandizer]

Sag ich ja, das ist was man "Jun Fan Gung Fu" nennt. Der Autor hat dafür die Bezeichnung "Original JKD" verwendet. Kann sein, dass die die sich streng an dem JFGF halten es "Original JKD" nennen, aber das ist kein Grund für den Autor es auch so zu nennen, weil die die es OJKD nennen wahrlich keine Ahnung haben, da Bruce selbst nicht wollte, dass JKD ein Stil wird, und die tun genau das Gegenteil.

[jkdberlin]

"Original JKD" ist ein in der Zwischenzeit feststehender, aktzeptierter Begriff. Der Autor hat genau den richtigen Begriff gewählt.

"weil die die es OJKD nennen wahrlich keine Ahnung haben"
Auch hier hoffe ich, dass du weisst, wen du da alles mit beleidigst. Unter anderem eine ganze Menge Originalschüler von Bruce Lee. Du hast also mehr Ahnung als die Leute, die tatsächlich dabei waren und das seit über 30 Jahren trainieren...

Grüsse

[jkdberlin]

Btw, der da rechts steht, neben Guro Dan Inosanto, ist übrigens der Author. Full-Instructor unter Guro Dan...

Grüsse

[Grandizer]

Also ich öffne das JKD-Buch und was lese ich als erstes? "This book is dedicated to the free, creative martial artist".
Wo ist die Freiheit und die Kreativität wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?
Bruce sagte immer "Express yourself". Wo gibt's Raum für mich mich auszudrücken wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?
"Original JKD" zu sagen ist zu sagen, "Bruce hat einen Stil erfunden, und diesen Stil üben wir".
JKD ist kein Stil, und Bruce hat nie behauptet, einen erfunden zu haben, also kann es keinen OJKD geben.

[Mono]

@Frank&Grandizer:
DANKE für eure Diskussion(en)!
Hab mich selten so vor dem Rechner amüsiert und auf eine Fortsetzung gehofft...

Kurz mal meine 2ct:

Zitat von Grandizer "Original JKD" zu sagen ist zu sagen, "Bruce hat einen Stil erfunden, und diesen Stil üben wir".

Warum???
OJKD bedeutet das zu trainieren, was B.Lee zu Lebzeiten unterrichtet hat - und das bedeutet nicht "nur" Techniken sondern ebenso Konzepte, Prinzipien und Philosophien - diese Lehren (Technik UND Theorie) Bilden für jeden die Basis seiner persönlichen Entwicklung.

Zitat von Grandizer Wo ist die Freiheit und die Kreativität wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?

Nach dieser Aussage dürfte ich mich als Kampfsportler/Künster also gerade NICHT entwickeln und frei entfalten - denn wenn ich das tue würde ich mich ja genau an das halten was er gelehrt hat...und das darf ich ja nicht

Vieleicht solltest du einfach mal aufhören dich in Büchern und Artikeln zu verrenen und deine eigenen Interpretationen von JKD als die allumfassende Wahrheit anzusehen (und vor allem zu verbreiten) und dir von erfahrenen Leuten in der Szene ZEIGEN lassen was JKD ist und was es bedeutet.
Vieleicht siehst du dann irgendwann das OJKD nicht nur eine "Kopie" der Techniken und JKDC mehr als nur die Philosophie "tu was du willst" ist...

Gruss