I was that "VT fighter"

[Bart der Geier]

Wo denn?

[Harom]

Zitat von Kraken die wt'ler stellen fragen im stile von mmaiscool

achso, hehe

[DeepPurple]

Zitat von landfrau es liegt wohl daran dass "die vtler" alles was mit wt zu tun hat zerreissen! wenn jetzt mal ein vtler sich was zutraut (RESPEKT!!!),aber leider nicht so dolle aussieht dabei,dann wollen sie das schnell unter den teppich kehren. so müssen sie sich eben nicht wundern wenn einige wtler jetzt auch fragen stellen so wie mmaiscool!

Dann stell halt Deine Fragen. Wäre interessanter als Deine Unterstellungen.
Die werden hier nicht diskutiert.

Peter

[Holzfäller]

Eine gewisse Schadenfreude kann sich sicher kein WTler verkneifen. Bisher waren es die WTler, die bei solchen Veranstaltungen teilgenommen haben und gnadenlos untergegangen sind. Da sieht man es natürlich mit einer gewissen Genugtuung, dass "die VTler" auch nicht besser abschneiden.

Die Frage von mmaiscool ist aber berechtigt und keineswegs hämisch, denn Howard Kinnard hat in seinem Posting schließlich selbst geschrieben:

I know however what to expect and what I have to alter if I wish to be successfull in such a competition. I will alter my training and intend to compete again - even if it is only one more time.

Da ist die Frage zulässig, was er denn an seinem Training ändern wird, damit er bei einem erneuten Fight besser abschneidet. Gehts nur um die Kondition oder gehts auch um Technik, Strategie etc. ?

Er hat ferner geschrieben:

The majority of the fight was on the ground.

Da stellt sich die Frage, ob er Bodenkampf in sein VT-Training einbauen möchte *hust*, ob er nebenbei Ringen oder zum Freefight gehen wird oder wie oder was. Dann darf man sich die Frage stellen, ob sein Stil überhaupt noch was mit VT zu tun hat, oder ob er im Grunde einen Kickboxstil mit Grappling praktiziert.

Und dann darf man eben auch wieder mal fragen, ob es wirklich soooo unwahrscheinlich ist, dass man auf der Straße in den Bodenkampf gezwungen wird. Im Ring ist es Alltag. Frage: Was macht ein Freistilringer in der SV ?

Um auch mal die Person Howard Kinnard ins rechte Licht zu setzen: Ist sicher bewundernswert, wenn man mit 38 noch mal in den Ring steigt. Aber letztlich hat er immer noch zwei Jahrzehnte KK Erfahrung, Boxen, TKD, Judo, WC, aktiv VT. Das ist deutlich mehr Erfahrung, als die meisten aktiven MMAler haben. Ihn also jetzt als Kanonenfutter hinzustellen, weil er 38 ist, halte ich für übertrieben.

[PH_B]

Zitat von Holzfäller Und dann darf man eben auch wieder mal fragen, ob es wirklich soooo unwahrscheinlich ist, dass man auf der Straße in den Bodenkampf gezwungen wird.

Es ist mir sogar schon 2x passiert... war aber der Erste der wieder auf den Beinen war... und beide Male waren es Leute mit deutlich mehr Gewicht - da hätte ich wohl verloren.

Das Wichtigste was man verlieren kann ist die Mobilität, sie freiwillig aufzugeben ist für mich undenkbar.

[Bart der Geier]

Zitat von PH_B Es ist mir sogar schon 2x passiert... war aber der Erste der wieder auf den Beinen war... und beide Male waren es Leute mit deutlich mehr Gewicht - da hätte ich wohl verloren.

Na ja, es macht schon einen Unterschied ob's ein Ringer ist oder bloß ein Butterfass

Das Wichtigste was man verlieren kann ist die Mobilität, sie freiwillig aufzugeben ist für mich undenkbar.

Wenn Du am Boden landest ist Deine Mobilität logischerweise auch eingeschränkt. Und, Mobilität ist zwar wichtig, Gleichgewicht aber sehr viel wichtiger.

[PH_B]

Zitat von Bart der Geier Na ja, es macht schon einen Unterschied ob's ein Ringer ist oder bloß ein Butterfass Wenn Du am Boden landest ist Deine Mobilität logischerweise auch eingeschränkt. Und, Mobilität ist zwar wichtig, Gleichgewicht aber sehr viel wichtiger.

Mobilität = Gleichgewicht (für mich auf jeden fall) und wenn es mal dahin ist, dann sollte man zusehen, dass man es wiedererlangt... logisch, dass das gemeint war.

[PH_B]

Zitat von Bart der Geier Na ja, es macht schon einen Unterschied ob's ein Ringer ist oder bloß ein Butterfass

Btw... es war die Straße gemeint... selten wird man von ausgebildeten Ringern angegriffen

[DeepPurple]

@Holzfäller
Ich find die Fragen alle in Ordnung.

Sollte man sich vielleicht auch selbst stellen. Woran scheitert man selbst in einem Kampf (wenn erlebt) oder im Sparring? Speziell Boden: Trainiert man Bodenkampf oder will man ihn unbedingt vermeiden? Wie? Kann das klappen? Beim Freefight oder im Ernstfall? Nur so als Auswahl.

Einer hat die Erfahrung gemacht und macht sich vielleicht Gedanken drüber.

Peter

[Killer Joghurt]

@Holzfäller

der hat doch Bodenkampf mit drin wenn er halt Judo macht.
Halt braucht er bissl länger weil man erstma was anderes lernst als aufm Boden zu choken

[Howard Kinnard]

Hi again,

so, I have now had a chance to review the video again. . If I had my say, my copy, and any others in existence would be destroyed now .

Firstly, although I have been avoiding saying this, it needs saying.
This thread started along the lines of "VT man loses in free fight", which, of course, pricked the ears of everyone who has an axe to grind against VT, and also of everyone who has any interest in VT at all. There have been suggestions made in this thread that the VT fraction is trying to distance themselves from the event, which I find rather unfair. PhB has added his comments to this thread, and MK, although he has written nothing here, has stated his position on the forum on his website, which has also been posted here.
The simple fact is, it is unfair to put me into the box of "VT man" for this fight.
If the object is to discredit VT, or even to quieten the VT fractions claims, then I am probably not the best tool for the job. The argument would be better served if and when a "VT man" actually does enter the ring.
Yes, I train under MK in Bielefeld and yes, I class myself as his student.
However, I have more experience in other systems than I have had in VT.
Much more.
If and when a video becomes public (which I dread, and I have thought about putting a copy on YouTube to end this matter), it can plainly be seen that there is no attempt to fight á la VT principles or concepts. I do not use the "VT guard" (for want of a better phrase), I do not "a "VT man" would, and I do not follow the guidelines which MK, and I believe PhB, propagate.
If I were to sum up the VT strategy in a nutshell, it may be "stay in striking distance, obtain the best position, limit your opponents possibilities, and strike to finish. Do not go to the ground". This was not my strategy at all, which can clearly be seen on the video.
My Strategy went more along the lines of "close the distance as quickly as possible to get to the clinch, strike from the clinch using elbows if possible to negate the effects of the headgear, take to the ground and continue striking if appropriate. Should the opportunity arise on the ground, choke or submit".
Why did my strategy not conform to my understanding of VT? Not because I do not believe that the VT way would work, but purely because I did/do not believe that I am in the position to be able to pull it off.
The fact of the matter is, I was planning to take part in a free fight event this year. As I have said, it has a lot to do with a "do it while you still can" matter. The FAC was something I entered on the spur of the moment. I entered it because, having looked at the video of the 2007 event on YouTube, I did not judge the level of competition to be exceptionally high (I was pleasantly surprised at the quality of the entrants on the day) and there was compulsory headgear. I judged that it would be a good opportunity to "test the waters".
As I was not expecting to compete this early, my training was also not geared up to this aim.
If I remember correctly, in the time I have spent with MK, I have only actually sparred once. Once.
This isn’t because MK doesn’t believe in sparring, but because he believes (and I agree) that I have too much other baggage which has to be sorted before I start attempting to implement the “VT way” into a sparring environment.
I have struggled with the VT way of thinking that the fight should not go to the ground and ground fighting is not necessary. Whilst I do believe and agree that the ground is the worst place to be on “the streets©” , I also believe that the chances of it not happening in an MMA event are extremely small. We all know the arguments for and against, and there is no need to repeat them here. Suffice to say, I decided that I would not be in a position to defend against attempts to take me to the ground within the time frame I had set myself, and I did not believe that I would be able to finish each fight by knocking each competitor out in a standing exchange. Thus, I judged it prudent to invest some time in learning some ground fighting. The only ground fighting option available to me here, without a drive of about 100km, is the local Judo club. I joined this club in December 2007and, as I didn’t want to say “Hello, I am only really interested in learning the ground fighting aspects of Judo, very quickly please” and be seen as a total idiot, I decided to go though the normal training which every beginner does, with the intention of explaining my situation when they got to know me better and saw I was not just some idiot wanting to learn to choke everyone out. Up until the time of my registration for the FAC, I had done very little ground work, mostly holding pins. It was only in the two weeks before the competition that I revealed my intentions and was able to practice more submissions. This fact is also obvious on the video of the fight, as I don’t actually manage to do very much on the ground. Watching the video I kept thinking “do this, do that!”, but of course I didn’t think to do anything during the fight.
So, to summarise. Leading up to the FAC, I had done very little sparring. Watching the video, there is no indication that I have done any sort of training in any sort of fighting system. It looks like two schoolboys having a fight. There is nothing that looks like WC, TKD or boxing to be seen, all of which I studied for a number of years. I competed often in TKD and boxing, but any TKDer or boxer would cringe at what I display. There is also nothing to be seen of VT or Judo, both of which I am relatively new to.
I am not writing this to defend VT, even though it may seem as such. I just feel embarrassed that I am being portrayed as the "VT man" for the sake of this discussion. I would be just as embarrassed to show this video to my VT compatriots as to anyone else. I haven’t even shown it to my wife!
If you are still interested in how I plan to change my training in order to compete again, please let me know, but if what you are looking for is “this was how I planned to use my deadly VT fighting skills to defeat all-comers, but I have now learnt that VT does not work”, then you will be disappointed. I am more likely to say “I will spend more time sparring with my VT to see how it holds up”, which should be a basic requirement, but due to the circumstances I have outlined above, was not the case.

I hope that this has cleared up some misunderstandings.
You know what the funny thing is? If this video ever gets out, it will probably be shown on Bullshido.com as proof that “MMA sucks”.
Thanks,
Matt

[Langer Eumel]

Hi Matt

let me give you a quick statement on your post.

See, I honestly think, that nobody in this "discussion group" is trying to pick on you or talk you down or something. I think that the congratulations and the "props" for getting into the ring truely come from the heart.

So your reputation isn´t at stake at all.....at least from my point of view.

The -lets call it bad luck for you is that so far the whole VT bunch that represents the system out here has been very harsh on any compeditor who was fought at those kinds of events. People from other Styles were laught at when they lost there fights and perhaps did not look that well. People who won there fights were picked on because they were considered to be MMA-Fighters and the wingchun background and effect on their fighting was denied. They even picked on the opponents, because if a WingTsun oder TC fighter won his fight their opponent obviously had to be a goofball, idiot and completely unable to fight.

This "talking down" happened from the very save position of never having put any VT contestor into a ring situation.

Now, unfortunately you have been the first and only guy who has some training in this system who was brave enough to fight in the ring. Unfortunately you lost, but hey thats what happens. No big deal at all.

But of course those whose styles were talked down on in the past are quite "happy" now to see that a VT-Fighter has lost in the same situation. It shows that VT has the same problems as other selfdefence based styles in the ring.

Again, don´t take it personal. As a person you are highly respected for stepping up and testing your skills.

What people laugh at is that some VT People now have to climb down their horse and stop beeing that arrogant
Because there is no reason to be. They are just using water for cooking as anyone else does.

Take care Matt and keep on working

[Jibril]

Zitat von Bart der Geier Mobilität ist zwar wichtig, Gleichgewicht aber sehr viel wichtiger.

Hier was interessantes:

"Wong Shun Leung: You must learn, from the beginning, balance and stability, and then mobility.

Mfg

[mmaiscool]

Hi Matt,

thanks for your insights, which reveal you as a classical sportsman edit

The more so, I find it somehow disappointing that your last writing has a certain spin to blame the idea of this post being to discredit VT. edit

However, there are still many questions unanswered. What is the lesson you take from your mma fighting experience? How will you change your training? Is it just the amount of training or are the methods not appropriate?

The PHB-VT fraction here often makes a fool of the WT system, claiming WT takes way too long to be applicable in a fight, while PHB-VT can be made applicable in comparatively few time. Did I get something wrong or are you training VT for around 1,5 to 2 year now? May the WC system as a whole only be a tool for full time students to make it a sharp knife (which is by the way my opinion)? What are your thoughts on that?

Best regards, mmaiscool

[Trinculo]

Wenn man nicht einmal im Stillstand im Gleichgewicht ist, braucht man es mit Bewegungen natürlich erst gar nicht zu versuchen. Andererseits muss man das Gleichgewicht, hat man es ersteinmal gefunden, so früh wie möglich auf Bewegungen übertragen, da es im Stillstand nutzlos ist.

Sich zu bewegen, ohne im Gleichgewicht zu sein, hat mit Mobilität nichts zu tun.