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28-11-2003, 13:09
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JUDO wins over BJJ
From The Judo Q&A in Underworld Forum
pdeking (8/7/99 6:43:07 pm)
Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ The following is a list of recent judoka who defeated top BJJ men.
(1) Akira Shoji (Black belt in judo but no title in judo) knocked out Wallid Ismael (8 times BJJ champion who has defeated Renzo Gracie, Ralph Gracie, and Royce Gracie) in R2 in Pride 4.
(2) Igor Zinoviev (Black belt but only a local (NY and NJ) title in judo) defeated Mario Sperry (3 times world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). He knocked out Enson Inoue in 44 seconds in 1996 Vale Tudo Japan.
(3) Don Frye (2nd degree black belt in judo) defeated Amaury Bitetti (1995 world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) by TKO in UFC8. Don Frye spent a lot of time practicing judo before the bout with Amaury Bitetti. Frye knew that by practicing authentic judo, he would be completely prepared to take on the BJJ world champion Amaury Bitetti. That is why Frye looked so confident before the match, and he proved himself as we all know. After Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, Jeff Blatnick said to Frye that " Your submission skills have greatly improved." Frye then said, "I spent a lot of time practicing judo." These top BJJ fighters were unable to submit these totally unknown judoka who had no title in judo and lost the bouts in NHB. If BJJ is so much better than judo, then why did these top names in BJJ failed to apply any submission hold on the ground? The fact is that top BJJ fighters were defeated in NHB matches by no name judoka means that it is not very difficult for highly trained judoka to defend themselves against submission holds. Learn true judo, then you will learn to beat BJJ black belts on the ground.
(4) Yasuichi Ono choked out Jorge Gracie (Helio Gracie's older brother) circa 1950. These are four cases in which no name judoka defeated top BJJ fighters.
(5) Masahiko Kimura (7th dan BB undefeated for 13 years in judo) defeated Helio Gracie (the self-proclaimed founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu) by breaking two bones in the left arm of Helio, by udegarami. Helio Gracie was hospitalized for multiple fractures. In this bout, Helio was unable to score any counter or reverse. Kimura defeated Helio on the ground using a ground technique which is supposed to be BJJ's strength.
(6) In 1974, Wilhelm Ruska (1972 Olympics judo gold medalist in over 95kg class and absolute division) destroyed Iwan Gomes (then the no. 1 man in BJJ) by punches on the ground in a vale tudo match. (5) and (6) are records of what happened when top BJJ men fought top judoka. In both of these cases, these BJJ men were brave enough to challenge top judoka. But the bouts ended in executions by judoka.
faxia roxa (8/7/99 8:01:32 pm) Reply Re: Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ
Excellent post Pdeking. In my view, Kimura's skill in Judo is second only to that of Kyuzo Mifune. In the thread about Judo vs. BJJ I talk about what I feel are the major differences between the two arts. Even a Judoka who trains only for shiai will have good newaza skill because newaza is one of the two major components of shiai. The only Judoka whose mat skills are subpar are those who train to turtle up and avoid newaza, which in my view is not in keeping with the spirit of Judo at all. I feel that a Judoka who spends about half of his time doing newaza and trains not only for shiai but in the complete art of Judo (e.g. with all the various joint locks contained in Judo) is training in the most well-rounded grappling style that exists. These Judoka (which includes myself and I assume pdeking as well) have very strong skills with takedowns and throws, which means that they can stay standing if they choose, and when they decide to go to the ground they have a much better chance of starting in a clearly superior position instead of accepting a fairly neutral position like the guard. As has been provenm in events such as Judo America's Mat Madness newaza events, Judoka are generally superior to BJJers in terms of being able to both maintian osaekomi and to escape from the opponent's osaekomi, and also use and can work from a wider variety of osaekomi because Judo views all osaekomi (of which The A-Z of Judo lists 20, and there are many more) as more or less equal, as compared to BJJ where the mount (tate shiho gatame) is viewed as the ultimate osaekomi and other techniques such as kesa gatame are viewed as lesser, when in fact they are veery effective and efficient. Despite the opinion some people seem to hold, I feel that this is proof that allowing wins by osaekomi in shiai improves newaza skill, so long as skills at transitioning from osaekomi to submission are not neglected (which is generally not a problem, these skills are highly practiced by most Judoka and in most clubs osaekomi isn't counted in randori), although many Judo hold downs can easily be used to submit the opponent by themselves (kata gatame can easily be turned into a side choke, for example). Both the osaekomi and throwing skills mean the Judoka has a greater ability to get to a dominant position. Judoka have a huge assortment of effective submissions available to them, including many that some people mistakenly think were invented by BJJ (clock choke = okuri eri jime or koshi jime depending on variation, double anklelock counter to the rear naked = hiza tori garami, etc.). Also, if a Judoka gets behind his opponent, he has many options, several invented by Judoka or mostly unique to Judo, besides the direct choke (Eckersley roll to juji gatame, roll to jigoku jime, combination kataha jime to juji gatame, etc.). And of course, if these Judoka are forced to fight from either end of the guard, they are much more than competent. At my club, I would guess close to 40% of our newaza training time is devoted to passing the guard (my personal favorite as far as the guard is concerned) and sweeps, submissions, and defense from the guard ("the guard" referring to all the many variations thereof). Many submissions from the guard that are very common in Judo aren't seen much outside of Judo, including armlocks like ude gatame and hiza gatame (which to me seems generally easier and more efficient than the standard juji gatame from the guard, and is about as reliable). Having said that, I am sure that some practitioners of BJJ read this forum, and I would like them to know that this is my honest assesment of the two arts and is in no way meant to be derogatory towards BJJ, which is a great art itself. All arts are valuable, and BJJ in my view is one of the best. And if any BJJ practitioner or anyone else has a differing view point or further questions or comments on this, that is definitely welcome here. My forum is meant to be a place for exchange of information, and input from any source, so long as it is respectful to all posters of this forum, as all information posted here has been thus far, is always greatly appreciated.
pdeking (8/8/99 8:00:53 pm) Reply true judo I have been trying to convey what true judo is all about on the internet for the last two years since there are so many people who have never seen real judo. I think things have started to change gradually due to the effort of people like you and myself. I post at Underground to defend the honor of judo and the people who created it. You have done an excellent job for providing detailed explanation of real judo techniques. The sad fact is that majority of people in US have never seen real judo. Very few dojo in US teach real judo. TV never shows any judo match even in Olympics. What makes me really infuriated is that many BJJ followers claim that judo blackbelts are easily submitted by BJJ blue belts. These young men have never encountered real judoka who possess formidable skills. They also have no idea about how devastating judo throws can be if executed on a hard surface. I think it takes time for justice to prevail. I will keep on posting correct information on judo. faxia roxa (8/9/99 7:44:30 am)
Reply Pdeking, As I'm sure you will remember, I tried to convince people on the UG for many months before getting booted. The unfortunate fact is that many of them will never listen. That is why I love this place. The people here would rather learn about our great art than bash it. I think, though, that things are changing. I think there are more dojos are teaching the whole art of Judo these days than at any time in the last couple decades. Perhaps now all these people will be able to see Judo for everything it has, not just one small part of the whole.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 1:23:59 pm) Reply Re: Pdeking, It is okay to be proud of Judo...I am myself (Armbreaker from the Underground)...but discrediting a style that shares such a huge overlap with Judo, such as BJJ...not only makes BJJ look bad, but also Judo. I'm proud of both Judo, and BJJ...and pdeking...I like having faxia on here, but you my friend are way out of line by attempting to discredit Bjj, just for the sake of making Judo sound better. Judo does not, nor will ever need you to bash another art, especially one that shares many techniques with it, just to "enlighten" a few people. Faxia...although I didn't agree with you all the time on the Underground...I like what you are doing here..but tell me, am I wrong for feelng that pdeking is out of line by constantly bashing BJJ, in the name of Judo? Does it not make us (judoka) all look bad, when he acts this way? I have never read him post anything, other than BJJ bashing material. Like I said, I do both, love to do both...but it is not right to constantly bash another art, in the name of Judo, because it reflects on all of us.
pdeking (8/10/99 7:47:08 pm) Reply reply to Armbreaker BJJ is a complete subset of judo. It is for this reason that BJJ can never surpass judo. "If A and B are two sets, and A is a strict subset of B, then A can never exceed B" is a very basic theorem in logic. In other words, all the BJJ techniques are in judo, but there are many judo techniques that are absent in BJJ. BJJ has far fewer techniques than judo. In spite of all the facts I presented on the internet, some BJJ followers still claim that BJJ is far better than judo. I am only presenting facts. Armbreaker, I strongly recommend that you visit Gene LeBelle's dojo and meet with Mr. LeBelle or Gokor. It seems to me you have never seen judo at the Olympic level. I cannot blame you for this since it is practically impossible to see judo at the Olympic level for those who live in the US. You have no choice but to take BJJ because your judo teacher does not teach you real judo. I also recommend that you read all the articles written by Faxia Roxa on this forum. You will find them excellently instructive. As you say, majority of judoka in the US need to learn more newaza. I agree. Many judoka (not necessarily the A-class judoka) defeated top BJJ representatives under the BJJ rule as we saw in Abu Dhabi Challenge 1999 (e.g, Igor Yakimov, Mark Robinson, Hayato Sakurai) and in history (Kimura defeating Helio, Ono defeating Jorge Gracie (see www.bjj.org)). The opposite has never happened. I would be impressed if a BJJ representative managed to qualify for the next Olympic and won a medal in judo.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 8:13:11 pm) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I am not arguing whether or not one is better than the other...i'm arguing against your method of "spreading the word". I have rolled and taken seminars with Gokor, and Mike Swain...and while impressive...they didn't controlÊme when we rolled the way Rickson did. Well, I never rolled with Mr. Swain, but he threw me on my rear end a few times. Gokor is a very good guy and martialÊartist, but when I rolled with Rickson I was completely helpless, like a baby. But back to the originalÊtopic...i'm not slagging on Judo at all. If what I took was not a "good" brand of Judo, and it works for me...then true Judo would be an awesome sight to behold! But the way you bash jiujitsu is wrong. That is all i'm saying.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/11/99 6:03:12 am) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I also went back and read some of your facts. How can you can it be a win for Judo when Don Frye used wrestling and boxing to pound Amaury? You are counting wins in NHB contests against jiujitsu fighters who are not good at NHB, that only train for sport jiujitsu...such as Wallid, Amaury, and Sperry. You are making non-Gracie Brazilian Jiujitsu practictioners be held by the standard that the Gracies set. If it takes a world champion NHB fighter to beat a sport champion, then that says alot. From what I can see...only two Gracies have lost, in 70+ years to Judo.
faxia roxa (8/13/99 6:15:03 pm) Reply Jiu Jitsu Fanatic, Hello my friedn, great to see you here. I just got back from my vaction. Like I said, believe that all arts have something to offer, I believe that VJJ is a great art,and I believe that the best art is that which best suits the needs of the practitioner. I did not see what pdeking said as being derogatory towards BJJ, and although I definitely feel that, at least from my perspective, the Judo philosophy and skill set is the best available, I would not condone "bashing" of any art, be it Judo, BJJ, TKD, Wing Chun, etc.
pdeking (8/23/99 4:38:20 pm) Reply Gracie standard Bitetti defeated Royler in 1995. Ismael defeated Renzo, Ralph, and Royce. Sperry defeated Rolyer. These non-Gracies are technically superior to the Gracies. They have surpassed the standard set by the Gracies. Still they were all defeated by no name judoka. BJJ fanatics have been spreading lies about judo for the last several years. I am only correcting those lies and providing truth about judo. Judo has always been a science, which has nothing to do with a fanatic belief. On the other hand, BJJ is a cult for some of the followers. It is impossible to reason them. No logical explanation works for them since they are completely brainwashed and mind-controlled. It is good that the tide has changed and the number of BJJ fanatics has been dwindling steadily.
JUDO wins over BJJ
From The Judo Q&A in Underworld Forum
pdeking (8/7/99 6:43:07 pm)
Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ The following is a list of recent judoka who defeated top BJJ men.
(1) Akira Shoji (Black belt in judo but no title in judo) knocked out Wallid Ismael (8 times BJJ champion who has defeated Renzo Gracie, Ralph Gracie, and Royce Gracie) in R2 in Pride 4.
(2) Igor Zinoviev (Black belt but only a local (NY and NJ) title in judo) defeated Mario Sperry (3 times world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu). He knocked out Enson Inoue in 44 seconds in 1996 Vale Tudo Japan.
(3) Don Frye (2nd degree black belt in judo) defeated Amaury Bitetti (1995 world champion in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) by TKO in UFC8. Don Frye spent a lot of time practicing judo before the bout with Amaury Bitetti. Frye knew that by practicing authentic judo, he would be completely prepared to take on the BJJ world champion Amaury Bitetti. That is why Frye looked so confident before the match, and he proved himself as we all know. After Don Frye won the Ultimate Ultimate 1996, Jeff Blatnick said to Frye that " Your submission skills have greatly improved." Frye then said, "I spent a lot of time practicing judo." These top BJJ fighters were unable to submit these totally unknown judoka who had no title in judo and lost the bouts in NHB. If BJJ is so much better than judo, then why did these top names in BJJ failed to apply any submission hold on the ground? The fact is that top BJJ fighters were defeated in NHB matches by no name judoka means that it is not very difficult for highly trained judoka to defend themselves against submission holds. Learn true judo, then you will learn to beat BJJ black belts on the ground.
(4) Yasuichi Ono choked out Jorge Gracie (Helio Gracie's older brother) circa 1950. These are four cases in which no name judoka defeated top BJJ fighters.
(5) Masahiko Kimura (7th dan BB undefeated for 13 years in judo) defeated Helio Gracie (the self-proclaimed founder of Gracie Jiu Jitsu) by breaking two bones in the left arm of Helio, by udegarami. Helio Gracie was hospitalized for multiple fractures. In this bout, Helio was unable to score any counter or reverse. Kimura defeated Helio on the ground using a ground technique which is supposed to be BJJ's strength.
(6) In 1974, Wilhelm Ruska (1972 Olympics judo gold medalist in over 95kg class and absolute division) destroyed Iwan Gomes (then the no. 1 man in BJJ) by punches on the ground in a vale tudo match. (5) and (6) are records of what happened when top BJJ men fought top judoka. In both of these cases, these BJJ men were brave enough to challenge top judoka. But the bouts ended in executions by judoka.
faxia roxa (8/7/99 8:01:32 pm) Reply Re: Judo wins over BJJ/GJJ
Excellent post Pdeking. In my view, Kimura's skill in Judo is second only to that of Kyuzo Mifune. In the thread about Judo vs. BJJ I talk about what I feel are the major differences between the two arts. Even a Judoka who trains only for shiai will have good newaza skill because newaza is one of the two major components of shiai. The only Judoka whose mat skills are subpar are those who train to turtle up and avoid newaza, which in my view is not in keeping with the spirit of Judo at all. I feel that a Judoka who spends about half of his time doing newaza and trains not only for shiai but in the complete art of Judo (e.g. with all the various joint locks contained in Judo) is training in the most well-rounded grappling style that exists. These Judoka (which includes myself and I assume pdeking as well) have very strong skills with takedowns and throws, which means that they can stay standing if they choose, and when they decide to go to the ground they have a much better chance of starting in a clearly superior position instead of accepting a fairly neutral position like the guard. As has been provenm in events such as Judo America's Mat Madness newaza events, Judoka are generally superior to BJJers in terms of being able to both maintian osaekomi and to escape from the opponent's osaekomi, and also use and can work from a wider variety of osaekomi because Judo views all osaekomi (of which The A-Z of Judo lists 20, and there are many more) as more or less equal, as compared to BJJ where the mount (tate shiho gatame) is viewed as the ultimate osaekomi and other techniques such as kesa gatame are viewed as lesser, when in fact they are veery effective and efficient. Despite the opinion some people seem to hold, I feel that this is proof that allowing wins by osaekomi in shiai improves newaza skill, so long as skills at transitioning from osaekomi to submission are not neglected (which is generally not a problem, these skills are highly practiced by most Judoka and in most clubs osaekomi isn't counted in randori), although many Judo hold downs can easily be used to submit the opponent by themselves (kata gatame can easily be turned into a side choke, for example). Both the osaekomi and throwing skills mean the Judoka has a greater ability to get to a dominant position. Judoka have a huge assortment of effective submissions available to them, including many that some people mistakenly think were invented by BJJ (clock choke = okuri eri jime or koshi jime depending on variation, double anklelock counter to the rear naked = hiza tori garami, etc.). Also, if a Judoka gets behind his opponent, he has many options, several invented by Judoka or mostly unique to Judo, besides the direct choke (Eckersley roll to juji gatame, roll to jigoku jime, combination kataha jime to juji gatame, etc.). And of course, if these Judoka are forced to fight from either end of the guard, they are much more than competent. At my club, I would guess close to 40% of our newaza training time is devoted to passing the guard (my personal favorite as far as the guard is concerned) and sweeps, submissions, and defense from the guard ("the guard" referring to all the many variations thereof). Many submissions from the guard that are very common in Judo aren't seen much outside of Judo, including armlocks like ude gatame and hiza gatame (which to me seems generally easier and more efficient than the standard juji gatame from the guard, and is about as reliable). Having said that, I am sure that some practitioners of BJJ read this forum, and I would like them to know that this is my honest assesment of the two arts and is in no way meant to be derogatory towards BJJ, which is a great art itself. All arts are valuable, and BJJ in my view is one of the best. And if any BJJ practitioner or anyone else has a differing view point or further questions or comments on this, that is definitely welcome here. My forum is meant to be a place for exchange of information, and input from any source, so long as it is respectful to all posters of this forum, as all information posted here has been thus far, is always greatly appreciated.
pdeking (8/8/99 8:00:53 pm) Reply true judo I have been trying to convey what true judo is all about on the internet for the last two years since there are so many people who have never seen real judo. I think things have started to change gradually due to the effort of people like you and myself. I post at Underground to defend the honor of judo and the people who created it. You have done an excellent job for providing detailed explanation of real judo techniques. The sad fact is that majority of people in US have never seen real judo. Very few dojo in US teach real judo. TV never shows any judo match even in Olympics. What makes me really infuriated is that many BJJ followers claim that judo blackbelts are easily submitted by BJJ blue belts. These young men have never encountered real judoka who possess formidable skills. They also have no idea about how devastating judo throws can be if executed on a hard surface. I think it takes time for justice to prevail. I will keep on posting correct information on judo. faxia roxa (8/9/99 7:44:30 am)
Reply Pdeking, As I'm sure you will remember, I tried to convince people on the UG for many months before getting booted. The unfortunate fact is that many of them will never listen. That is why I love this place. The people here would rather learn about our great art than bash it. I think, though, that things are changing. I think there are more dojos are teaching the whole art of Judo these days than at any time in the last couple decades. Perhaps now all these people will be able to see Judo for everything it has, not just one small part of the whole.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 1:23:59 pm) Reply Re: Pdeking, It is okay to be proud of Judo...I am myself (Armbreaker from the Underground)...but discrediting a style that shares such a huge overlap with Judo, such as BJJ...not only makes BJJ look bad, but also Judo. I'm proud of both Judo, and BJJ...and pdeking...I like having faxia on here, but you my friend are way out of line by attempting to discredit Bjj, just for the sake of making Judo sound better. Judo does not, nor will ever need you to bash another art, especially one that shares many techniques with it, just to "enlighten" a few people. Faxia...although I didn't agree with you all the time on the Underground...I like what you are doing here..but tell me, am I wrong for feelng that pdeking is out of line by constantly bashing BJJ, in the name of Judo? Does it not make us (judoka) all look bad, when he acts this way? I have never read him post anything, other than BJJ bashing material. Like I said, I do both, love to do both...but it is not right to constantly bash another art, in the name of Judo, because it reflects on all of us.
pdeking (8/10/99 7:47:08 pm) Reply reply to Armbreaker BJJ is a complete subset of judo. It is for this reason that BJJ can never surpass judo. "If A and B are two sets, and A is a strict subset of B, then A can never exceed B" is a very basic theorem in logic. In other words, all the BJJ techniques are in judo, but there are many judo techniques that are absent in BJJ. BJJ has far fewer techniques than judo. In spite of all the facts I presented on the internet, some BJJ followers still claim that BJJ is far better than judo. I am only presenting facts. Armbreaker, I strongly recommend that you visit Gene LeBelle's dojo and meet with Mr. LeBelle or Gokor. It seems to me you have never seen judo at the Olympic level. I cannot blame you for this since it is practically impossible to see judo at the Olympic level for those who live in the US. You have no choice but to take BJJ because your judo teacher does not teach you real judo. I also recommend that you read all the articles written by Faxia Roxa on this forum. You will find them excellently instructive. As you say, majority of judoka in the US need to learn more newaza. I agree. Many judoka (not necessarily the A-class judoka) defeated top BJJ representatives under the BJJ rule as we saw in Abu Dhabi Challenge 1999 (e.g, Igor Yakimov, Mark Robinson, Hayato Sakurai) and in history (Kimura defeating Helio, Ono defeating Jorge Gracie (see www.bjj.org)). The opposite has never happened. I would be impressed if a BJJ representative managed to qualify for the next Olympic and won a medal in judo.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/10/99 8:13:11 pm) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I am not arguing whether or not one is better than the other...i'm arguing against your method of "spreading the word". I have rolled and taken seminars with Gokor, and Mike Swain...and while impressive...they didn't controlÊme when we rolled the way Rickson did. Well, I never rolled with Mr. Swain, but he threw me on my rear end a few times. Gokor is a very good guy and martialÊartist, but when I rolled with Rickson I was completely helpless, like a baby. But back to the originalÊtopic...i'm not slagging on Judo at all. If what I took was not a "good" brand of Judo, and it works for me...then true Judo would be an awesome sight to behold! But the way you bash jiujitsu is wrong. That is all i'm saying.
Jiujitsu Fanatic (8/11/99 6:03:12 am) Reply Re: reply to Armbreaker pdeking...I also went back and read some of your facts. How can you can it be a win for Judo when Don Frye used wrestling and boxing to pound Amaury? You are counting wins in NHB contests against jiujitsu fighters who are not good at NHB, that only train for sport jiujitsu...such as Wallid, Amaury, and Sperry. You are making non-Gracie Brazilian Jiujitsu practictioners be held by the standard that the Gracies set. If it takes a world champion NHB fighter to beat a sport champion, then that says alot. From what I can see...only two Gracies have lost, in 70+ years to Judo.
faxia roxa (8/13/99 6:15:03 pm) Reply Jiu Jitsu Fanatic, Hello my friedn, great to see you here. I just got back from my vaction. Like I said, believe that all arts have something to offer, I believe that VJJ is a great art,and I believe that the best art is that which best suits the needs of the practitioner. I did not see what pdeking said as being derogatory towards BJJ, and although I definitely feel that, at least from my perspective, the Judo philosophy and skill set is the best available, I would not condone "bashing" of any art, be it Judo, BJJ, TKD, Wing Chun, etc.
pdeking (8/23/99 4:38:20 pm) Reply Gracie standard Bitetti defeated Royler in 1995. Ismael defeated Renzo, Ralph, and Royce. Sperry defeated Rolyer. These non-Gracies are technically superior to the Gracies. They have surpassed the standard set by the Gracies. Still they were all defeated by no name judoka. BJJ fanatics have been spreading lies about judo for the last several years. I am only correcting those lies and providing truth about judo. Judo has always been a science, which has nothing to do with a fanatic belief. On the other hand, BJJ is a cult for some of the followers. It is impossible to reason them. No logical explanation works for them since they are completely brainwashed and mind-controlled. It is good that the tide has changed and the number of BJJ fanatics has been dwindling steadily.