JKD und Straight Lead

[re:torte]

hallo welt,

ich hab in letzter Zeit die Teri Tom Bücher, das Chinatown JKD und ein paar andere gelesen und jetzt stellt sich mir folgende Frage:

Ist die Straight Lead Essenziell für Jeet Kune Do?

Ich habe etwas mehr als 4 Jahre Concepts trainiert und kannte die Straight Lead nicht. Erstmals im TT- Buch habe ich davon gelesen. Wie ist das möglich? Bzw. ist Jeet Kune Do ohne die Straight Lead überhaupt JKD?

Was denkt ihr?

[jkdberlin]

Für mich: nein.

Die Straight Lead ist eine der Haupttechniken des JKDs, eine Basis wie der Jeet Tek oder der Bai Jong. Das ganze Konzept des Abfangens, Unterbrechens, Stoppen fusst auf diesen Techniken. Ohen sie wäre es für mich kein JKD. Auch kein JKD Concepts oder was sonst noch.

[re:torte]

Für mich: nein.

Die Straight Lead ist eine der Haupttechniken des JKDs, eine Basis wie der Jeet Tek oder der Bai Jong. Das ganze Konzept des Abfangens, Unterbrechens, Stoppen fusst auf diesen Techniken. Ohen sie wäre es für mich kein JKD. Auch kein JKD Concepts oder was sonst noch.

puuh, danke.
dass stimmt mich versöhnlich. Ich dachte meine Concept Erfahrung wäre universell.

[motörben]

hallo welt,
Ich habe etwas mehr als 4 Jahre Concepts trainiert und kannte die Straight Lead nicht.

Ich frag mich, und versteh mich nicht falsch, wie das möglich ist.

Straight Lead aka Jab ist doch DIE Grundtechnik überhaubt

Oder versteh ich jezt was falsch?

[re:torte]

Wir haben geboxt mit der JKD Fußarbeit und Panantukan, wenn ich das im Nachhinein betrachte.

[jkdberlin]

Straight Lead aka Jab ist doch DIE Grundtechnik überhaubt



Die Straight Lead ist kein Jab im Box-technischem Sinn!

[motörben]

Wir haben geboxt mit der JKD Fußarbeit und Panantukan, wenn ich das im Nachhinein betrachte.

Aber doch nicht 4 Jahre ohne gerade Führhand.....?

[motörben]

Die Straight Lead ist kein Jab im Box-technischem Sinn!

Nicht wirklich, stimmt wohl.
Es ist ja aber so, dass im JKD( Concept) in der Regel von Jab / Cross geredet wird wenn Führhand / Schlaghand gemeint ist.
Ein 'gelehrnter' Boxer wird darunter sicher etwas anderes verstehen.

Trozdem ist die gerade Führhand grundlegen für jede 'schlagende' Kampfkunst und wie man 4 Jahre quasi daran vorbei trainieren kann, ist mir nicht ganz klar

[cbJKD Wilfried]

der straight lead ist wie Frank schon schrieb kein "jab" in dem Sinne.

"JKD-mässig" ausgeführt sozusagen. "Gerade (mit der) Führhand" ist da etwas zu allgemein übersetzt.
edit:
@motorben

ja das ist es. Im JKD "Concepts" (ich denke du meinst damit Inosanto´s Jun Fan Gung Fu) wird von jab cross gesprochen und dann auch jab cross gemacht. Im Jun Fan Gung Fu werden solche Kombinationen auch geübt - als Basis. Trotzdem ist ein "straight lead" des JKDs auch in Kombination mit was die meisten als "cross" bezeichnen würden etwas ganz anderes, von Fussarbeit, Mechanik etc.
Auf einen straight lead folgt auch seltener direkt ein cross, das ist dann eher ungünstig. Eher ein straight kick/hook kick, der "cross", der keiner ist, wird meistens mit drop step gemacht ...
wie gesagt, mit Boxen hat das nur wenig zu tun was Mechanik und Idee/strategie dahinter angeht

Gruß Wilfried

[re:torte]

natürlich haben wir n Jab gemacht.
die Straight Lead ist ja Meilenweit von einem Jab aus´m Boxen entfernt.

Nachdem ich die Bücher gelesen habe war ich erstmal schockiert, dass ich vorher nie davon gehört hatte.

[jkdberlin]

Nachdem ich die Bücher gelesen habe war ich erstmal schockiert, dass ich vorher nie davon gehört hab.

Bin ich auch.

[re:torte]

Bin ich auch.

über meine schlechte Grammatik oder das ich dass nicht kannte?

[Tangkapan]

Straight LEad ist nicht das gleiche wie ein JAb aus dem Boxen.

Sie ist aber, meiner Meinung nach, Essenziell für JKD.
Diese Technik verkörpert eigentlich dass, wofür JKD steht.
"Das Abfangen mit der Faust" --- oder dem Bein
Jeet Kune oder Jeet Tek..

Dies ist aber gleichzeitig am schwersten zu erreichen.
Darum ist auch die Aussage Frank's nicht als Falsch zu bewerten.

Und auch hier wird dann mit Sicherheit wieder die Diskussion weitergehen, was wohl besser wäre.... "concepts" oder "original"..
Was auch wieder meist im AUge des Betrachters liegt.

Gruß
Ralf

[jkdberlin]

über meine schlechte Grammatik oder das ich dass nicht kannte?

Das du das nicht kanntest...

[jkdberlin]

Und auch hier wird dann mit Sicherheit wieder die Diskussion weitergehen, was wohl besser wäre.... "concepts" oder "original"..


Wieso sollte es?

Die Straight-Lead oder Jeet Kune, der Stoppschlag mit der vorderen (rechten) Hand ist eine Technik, die es im JKD immer gibt. Egal ob Original oder Concepts.

Ich habe den Stoppschalg von Dan Inosanto und Larry Hartsell in den ersten Trainingsstunden gelernt. Der Unterschied zum "Jab" wurde erwähnt und war mir auch klar.

Von daher liegt es sicher nicht an der Leier, ob Concepts oder Original.

[re:torte]

Ich hab natürlich (was man nicht sollte) von meinen Erfahrungen auf die komplette Concept- Linie geschlossen. Aber den Zahn hat Frank mir ja gezogen.....

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Ich habe es auch (schon) im "JKD Concepts" kennen gelernt.

Der Fokus darauf war weniger stark als bei der WNG oder etwa im TWJKD, liegt aber glaube ich eher am curriculum.

chung chui, oder als sliding leverage/slant right sowie jeet tek/leg obstruction/jam lernt man denke ich relativ früh egal in welcher Linie.

[Tangkapan]

Wieso sollte es?

Die Straight-Lead oder Jeet Kune, der Stoppschlag mit der vorderen (rechten) Hand ist eine Technik, die es im JKD immer gibt. Egal ob Original oder Concepts.

Ich habe den Stoppschalg von Dan Inosanto und Larry Hartsell in den ersten Trainingsstunden gelernt. Der Unterschied zum "Jab" wurde erwähnt und war mir auch klar.

Von daher liegt es sicher nicht an der Leier, ob Concepts oder Original.

Da liegst Du richtig.. 100%

Aber es wird immer wieder darüber diskutiert wo diese TEchniken "richtig" oder "falsch" unterrichtet werden.

Mir pers. stellt sich der Vergleich erst gar nicht. Entweder es funktioniert oder es funktioniert nicht.
Das liegt ja am Anwender und nicht an der Technik.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Och da brauch man doch gar nicht drüber diskutieren...

...das ist doch allgemein bekannt :D

*scherz*

[Tangkapan]

:d
och da brauch man doch gar nicht drüber diskutieren...

...das ist doch allgemein bekannt :d

*scherz*
:-)

[cbJKD Wilfried]

ich würde noch gerne kurz ergänzen, das es nicht "nur" am Anwender liegt.

Der straight lead an sich, wie auch der "stop kick" zB sind ja erstmal nur Werkzeuge. Wie Hammer oder Zange. Und klar macht sie erst der Handwerker zu etwas nützlichem.

Allerdings müssen stopkick und stophit etc meiner Meinung mit Taktik und Strategie unterrichtet werden, nicht nur die Technik bzw das nackte Konzept: "mach das wenn der andere ansetzt zum Hauen" und bei dem, der natürliche Fähigkeiten hat klappts, und bei anderen nie. Was wäre das für ein Kampfsystem.

Ich persönlich finde,
es hängt weniger vom "Anwender" an sich, sondern eher vom Zeitpunkt bzw der Taktik/Strategie ab, mit der egal welcher Anwender das versucht.

Obs klappt oder nicht, liegt nicht an der "Person" sondern an Timing, Schnelligkeit, Struktur und Taktik - die wiederum erst unterrichtet werden muss bevor sie geübt werden kann.

Bruce´s JKD oder was viele als "Original JKD" bezeichnen, hat viel mehr mit dem "Wie" und "Wann" zu tun, als mit der reinen Technik. Sind ja eh nur ne handvoll.

[Tangkapan]

ich würde noch gerne kurz ergänzen, das es nicht "nur" am Anwender liegt.

Der straight lead an sich, wie auch der "stop kick" zB sind ja erstmal nur Werkzeuge. Wie Hammer oder Zange. Und klar macht sie erst der Handwerker zu etwas nützlichem.

Allerdings müssen stopkick und stophit etc meiner Meinung mit Taktik und Strategie unterrichtet werden, nicht nur die Technik bzw das nackte Konzept: "mach das wenn der andere ansetzt zum Hauen" und bei dem, der natürliche Fähigkeiten hat klappts, und bei anderen nie. Was wäre das für ein Kampfsystem.

Ich persönlich finde,
es hängt weniger vom "Anwender" an sich, sondern eher vom Zeitpunkt bzw der Taktik/Strategie ab, mit der egal welcher Anwender das versucht.

Obs klappt oder nicht, liegt nicht an der "Person" sondern an Timing, Schnelligkeit, Struktur und Taktik - die wiederum erst unterrichtet werden muss bevor sie geübt werden kann.

Bruce´s JKD oder was viele als "Original JKD" bezeichnen, hat viel mehr mit dem "Wie" und "Wann" zu tun, als mit der reinen Technik. Sind ja eh nur ne handvoll.

Das hast Du mich falsch verstanden.

Es liegt immer am Anwender.. Egal um was es geht. Die Technik ist, wie Du schon sagtest, nur das Werkzeug.
Strategie, Koordination, Energie usw. kommt mit/durch die Anwendung der Technik durch die Person.
Ansonsten bräuchte man nur zu kopieren und das wars..
Nochmal
JKD ist keine Pille.. Man kann vieles Kaufen aber keine Umsetzung und kein Können. Man kann nur noch das verbessern was man an Fähigkeiten mitbringt.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Meinst Du das so, das man diese Techniken gar nicht "falsch" unterrichten kann?

Oder meinst Du, das es nur eine begrenzte Anzahl priviligierter Anwender gibt, die das "überhaupt" können?

Oder meinst Du einfach nur das man Fähigkeiten nicht kaufen kann, sondern "machen" muss um sich Erfahrung und Skills zu erarbeiten?`

Dann hängts aber natürlich wieder doch auch dran, was der "Anwender" gezeigt und beigebracht bekommt, auch an Trainingsmethoden usw, weil das ja massgeblich beeinflussen würde, wie sehr und in welcher Zeit diese Fähigkeiten verbessert werden können.

Ich denke eher,
es ist beides. Es gibt Leute, die so wenig trainieren, das sie auch mit dem besten Kampfsystem nichts reissen können, weil sie zu faul sind was dran zu tun und welche die sind von Natur aus so gute Athleten etc, das sie einen mit nem rosa Wattebusch KO schlagen würden, wenns nix anderes gibt.

Wobei jetzt allgemeine "Fähigkeiten im draufhauen" noch nicht mit "gutem" oder authentischem Umgang mit dem "JKD System" (oder Karate-System etc) gleich zu setzen sind...

Gibt auch fähige Schläger die beschissen oder "nicht authentisch" irgend ein System unterrichten, obwohl sie sich draussen immer mit was "anderen" prügeln

[Tangkapan]

Meinst Du das so, das man diese Techniken gar nicht "falsch" unterrichten kann?

Oder meinst Du, das es nur eine begrenzte Anzahl priviligierter Anwender gibt, die das "überhaupt" können?

Oder meinst Du einfach nur das man Fähigkeiten nicht kaufen kann, sondern "machen" muss um sich Erfahrung und Skills zu erarbeiten?`

Dann hängts aber natürlich wieder doch auch dran, was der "Anwender" gezeigt und beigebracht bekommt, auch an Trainingsmethoden usw, weil das ja massgeblich beeinflussen würde, wie sehr und in welcher Zeit diese Fähigkeiten verbessert werden können.

Ich denke eher,
es ist beides. Es gibt Leute, die so wenig trainieren, das sie auch mit dem besten Kampfsystem nichts reissen können, weil sie zu faul sind was dran zu tun und welche die sind von Natur aus so gute Athleten etc, das sie einen mit nem rosa Wattebusch KO schlagen würden, wenns nix anderes gibt.

Wobei jetzt allgemeine "Fähigkeiten im draufhauen" noch nicht mit "gutem" oder authentischem Umgang mit dem "JKD System" (oder Karate-System etc) gleich zu setzen sind...

Gibt auch fähige Schläger die beschissen oder "nicht authentisch" irgend ein System unterrichten, obwohl sie sich draussen immer mit was "anderen" prügeln

ich meine das so...
JEder Anwender, egal auf welchem Gebiet, bringt bestimmte Fähigkeiten mit sich...
Diese Fähigkeiten können durch Fleiß und Training verbessert werden.
Ein Lehrer kann dem Schüler bestimmte Richtlinien mitgeben. Kann ihm zeigen wie sich die "Technik" unter bestimmten Voraussetzungen verhält und kann eine der möglichen Ergebnisse aufzeigen.
Aber er kann die Sache nie für den Schüler ausführen.
Die korrekte Umsetzung erfolgt nur durch den der es Ausführt.

Sind aber einige dieser Attribute nicht - oder nur mangelhaft vorhanden wird sich das im Ergebnis wiederspiegeln.

Beispiel:
Die KEtte ist nur so stark wie ihr schwächstes Glied...
Oder was Kämpfen betrifft... nicht nur austeilen ist wichtig sondern auch die Fähigkeit einzustecken.

Egal was Du wie und von wem gezeigt bekommst.. Du bist der der es ausführt..Das nimmt Dir keiner ab..
Also bist Du der wichtigste Faktor in der Ausführung.

Denn wenn es sich so verhalten würde wie Du es beschrieben hast, würden wir nicht diskutieren und es kämen keine Fragen auf, da wir ja alle das Gleiche machen würden. Es gäbe keine "Concepts" und keine "Original" Diskussion....

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Bis auf den letzten Absatz bin ich deiner Meinung.

ich bin allerdings nicht der Meinung, das wir diskutieren, weil wir alle unterschiedliche Fähigkeiten haben und zu unterschiedlichen Ergebnissen kommen, sondern weil wir eben nicht alle das gleiche machen, weil manche "Irgendwas" machen, andere machen Online JKD, oder Superhelden JKD, oder Buch JKD oder Wing Chun und meinen es wäre JKD, oder Jun fan Gung Fu und meinen es wäre bruce lee´s Jeet Kune Do, manche machen sogar stickfighting und thaiboxen und meinen immer noch es sei JKD, manche sind authorisiert zu unterrichten, manche sind es nicht, manche haben vor 30 jahren gelernt andere vor 10, manche haben 1965 JKD gelernt, andere 1960 JFGF oder 1971 Jeet Kune Do, manche bei Schülern aus Seattle oder Oakland oder LA, manche sind mangelhafter ausgebildet und haben ihre Lücken anders geschlossen etc...

wegen dieses Durcheinanders diskutiert man JFGF vs "Concept" vs JFJKD oder sonst was.

Im Boxforum wird auch diskutiert im Karateforum auch, aber DA machen nicht alle was ganz anderes...da wird tatsächlich über persönliche "Expressions" derselben Sache diskutiert.

Ich verstehe das JKD nicht eine Pille ist und nicht nur imitieren einen gut macht, aber an sich sollte ein gutes Kampfsystem schon beinhalten, das man durch das imitieren, verstehen und selber Erfahrung machen gut wird, sonst wäre es ein bescheidenes kampfsystem- wenn man nicht durch das Trainieren desselben gut würde

[Tangkapan]

Bis auf den letzten Absatz bin ich deiner Meinung.

ich bin allerdings nicht der Meinung, das wir diskutieren, weil wir alle unterschiedliche Fähigkeiten haben und zu unterschiedlichen Ergebnissen kommen, sondern weil wir eben nicht alle das gleiche machen, weil manche "Irgendwas" machen, andere machen Online JKD, oder Superhelden JKD, oder Buch JKD oder Wing Chun und meinen es wäre JKD, oder Jun fan Gung Fu und meinen es wäre bruce lee´s Jeet Kune Do, manche machen sogar stickfighting und thaiboxen und meinen immer noch es sei JKD, manche sind authorisiert zu unterrichten, manche sind es nicht, manche haben vor 30 jahren gelernt andere vor 10, manche haben 1965 JKD gelernt, andere 1960 JFGF oder 1971 Jeet Kune Do, manche bei Schülern aus Seattle oder Oakland oder LA, manche sind mangelhafter ausgebildet und haben ihre Lücken anders geschlossen etc...



Ich beziehe meine Kommentare rein auf Technik und Ausführung der Technik.
Nicht auf dieses ewige hin und her was original oder concepts ist..

Ansonsten geb ich Dir Recht.
Grade das ist ja der springende Punkt..
Wenn JKD klar definiert und unterrichtet worden wäre, würden alle das Gleiche machen.
So liegt aber das Problem darin, das es viele Meinungen und noch mehr Ansichten gibt.

Es gibt ja auch genug Schüler die gerne den sog. Concepts Unterricht machen, da sie halt gerne zusätzlich Escrima oder Silat machen wollen.
Macht ja auch Spaß keine Frage...
Viele wollen sich halt nicht hinstellen und pro Tag 2000 Punches und 1000 Kicks machen und immer und immer wieder..

Man sollte bei der Trennung auch den nicht unerheblichen "Kundenwunsch" berücksichtigen.
Ich habe genug Leute die in Workshops immer wieder nach Escrima fragen. Das ist ok und ich unterrichte das dann auch gerne. Aber ich mache klar das es kein JKD ist.

[SteFanJKD]

i have looked a litle bit about the art of discussion. first is exordium, where you try to catch everybodys attention.
here it goes.

bruce Lee said that the Leading Straight is the bread and butter of JKD


Straight Lead aka Jab ist doch DIE Grundtechnik überhaubt

Now I take the discussion to Narratio and Probatio, I will present my oppinion and give facts and arguments for my case.

The Lead Straight and the Jab are two different techniques!!! If we look at The fighting Method Book series there are only vertical fist pictures Look at the Tao of JKd book and there is 8 pages on the "Lead straight", only 1,5 pages under ´"Jab", The intresting thing is that the drawing that has to do with the "jab" has a Vertical fist. Further in the tao we can read under some weapons in JKD HAND TECHNIQUES; Straight Leading punch AND Jab

So my oppinion is that there are two straigt punches in JKD. Bruce wrote that the Jab is a "feeler", the basis for other blows. JKD is based upon deception. The Vertical JKD jab is used to set up a SDA, ABC etc, It is not used like a "basic" Horicontal strike like in boxing, The "basic" JKD straight punch is Lead straight, The JKD Jab is a tactic, a feint, a feeler like Bruce said. The second you punch with Horicontal fist, either in Lead Straigh or Jab you are doing Boxing, NOT JKD.

I think that the confusion is based upon that the Horicontal Fist boxing jab is used in JKD books and videos. In the Jun fan/JKD text book by Tim tacket and Chris kent They describe
1. The Speed Jab (horicontal fis)
2.The Power jab (horiconatl Fist)
3.The Enterig Lead(Horicontal fist)
4. The dedfensive Jab (horicomntal...)
5. The whipping Jab (horicontal9


Then they say that the angle of the fist can vary from Vertical, 1/4 turn, Horicontal, 3/4 turn

Now i am supposed to go to Retutatio, trying to prodict the response to my argument. People will probably say that JKD is whatever works for the individual, a straight punch is a straight punch, it is not important where it comes from, the important thing is what works for you.

and finally, Peroration, the challenging ending. Since this is a JKD discussion I would expect nothing more that if somebody does not share my point of view they join the discussion by presenting their own, Narratio and Probatio, Not make Politics or a Fuss out of it, make JKD out of it by leaving prejudice and closemindeness out of the discussion

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

well, until now everybody agreed on that. Nothing else...

[SteFanJKD]

well, until now everybody agreed on that. Nothing else...

Okey, lets take it one step further. If everybody agrees that throwing a horizontal fist Boxing jab is not JKD, why do people still do that technique and call themselves JKD practitioners?

If everybody agrees with me I would take it as nobody from the persons who are involved in this discussions and call themselves JKd practitioners uses a Boxing jab. Now is the time for me to remind that i am not trying to make a fuss or politics.

I simply want to know if everybody on this Forum considers it enough to train a boxing jab as long as we separate a JKd jab from a boxing Jab and still say that we are 100% JKd practitioners and not Mixed martial artists?

My oppinion is that when we have researched all the diffrenet Straight punches with the Lead hand and choose to express our truth through a Verticak Fist Lead Straight and Jab we are JKd practitioners. If we combine other variations into ourc teachings and training we are more Mixed Martial artists. what is you oppinion on this statement?

/SteFan

[Tangkapan]

Okey, lets take it one step further. If everybody agrees that throwing a horizontal fist Boxing jab is not JKD, why do people still do that technique and call themselves JKD practitioners?

If everybody agrees with me I would take it as nobody from the persons who are involved in this discussions and call themselves JKd practitioners uses a Boxing jab. Now is the time for me to remind that i am not trying to make a fuss or politics.

I simply want to know if everybody on this Forum considers it enough to train a boxing jab as long as we separate a JKd jab from a boxing Jab and still say that we are 100% JKd practitioners and not Mixed martial artists?

My oppinion is that when we have researched all the diffrenet Straight punches with the Lead hand and choose to express our truth through a Verticak Fist Lead Straight and Jab we are JKd practitioners. If we combine other variations into ourc teachings and training we are more Mixed Martial artists. what is you oppinion on this statement?

/SteFan

Bob Bremer said and wrote in his book....
"Bruce trained everybody individually if possible, for sure in private lessons. I asked him why did you tell me to use my straight lead with a 45 degree angled fist, when everybody uses the horizontal fist? Bruce said.. because your body structure dictates it!"
This again rules his interpretation of JKD when the actual person is more important than any stile or system"

Meaning. sometimes the individual body structure forces variation.
The key in the straight lead does not lie in the angle of the fist, but in its approach.
If a person uses his heel instead of his whole foot for a Jeet Tek doesn't mean that he is doing it wrong. It might be harder to execute but it is not wrong.. Saying the turn of the fist makes all the difference in the straight lead is wrong. The straight lead's soul purpose does not lie in the degree of the fist, but in the execution itself.

The difference between a boxing JAb and the Jeet Kune or straight lead is the approach, the elbow down theory and the body behind the punch theory. Boxng Jab .. elbow outside, power mostly from shoulder and body rotation. Be it as a probe or a finishing blow.

i think it is totally wrong to define JKD through the angle of a fist,, and calling other angles as something different.
JKD is defined through its target and approach against an oponent.

Why, when and how do i throw the lead punch is the most important thing... and the difference between JKD SL and a Jab from boxing.

It would be wrong as well, if someone would dictate the target zone of a jeet tek. (for example: it only a jeet tek if the foot hits 5cm below the knee, anything lower is not a jeet tek) More than wrong.. this is not the purpose of the jeet tek.

Always remember the quote: If people say JKD is different from this or that, then let the name JKD be wiped out for what it is... only a name.

[Security]

Bob Bremer said and wrote in his book....
"Bruce trained everybody individually if possible, for sure in private lessons. I asked him why did you tell me to use my straight lead with a 45 degree angled fist, when everybody uses the horizontal fist? Bruce said.. because your body structure dictates it!"
This again rules his interpretation of JKD when the actual person is more important than any stile or system"


These are the words of a real master!
No standard techniques but individual techniques that are adequate for the specific person so that everybody can use his personal strengths instead of creating "clones".

[Tangkapan]

These are the words of a real master!
No standard techniques but individual techniques that are adequate for the specific person so that everybody can use his personal strengths instead of creating "clones".

thats exactly what it means and how it should be

[Gin Lai]

Hierzu ein Auszug aus einem Ted Wong Artikel:

"Man ist geneigt anzunehmen, dass Bruce jeden Schüler unterschiedlich unterrichtete und weil jeder Schüler unterschiedliche Bedürfnisse hatte, jedem etwas Einzigartiges vermittelte. Ganz so, ist es nicht.
Wenn man Bruce´s private Aufzeichnungen analysiert, wird man feststellen, dass, -- abgesehen von ein paar geringfügigen Modifikationen, die auf den jeweiligen Schüler abgestimmt waren, um gewisse Punkte und Ideen zu berücksichtigen, bei denen dieser Hilfe benötigte, -- Lee seinen Schülern im Wesentlichen die gleichen Dinge beibrachte.
Ob Joe Lewis, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Stirling Silliphant oder sämtliche Nucleusmitglieder, die von ihm trainiert wurden, -- Lee unterrichtete in der Zeitspanne von 1967-1970 im Wesentlichen die gleichen Techniken.
Möglicherweise erkannte Lee, dass sich einige Schüler bei der Ausübung dieser und jener Techniken hervortaten, während andere Schüler wiederum ganz andere Dinge besser durchführen konnten.
Die Aufgabe war es (also), ihre Stärken zu optimieren und ihre Schwächen zu verbergen oder zu schützen.
Lee kam zu dem Schluss, dass, solange wir jeweils nur zwei Hände und zwei Füsse haben, die Zielsetzung darin bestehen muss, diese bis zum Maximum auszuschöpfen."

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Als ich mit Tim und Jeremy trainiert habe und Bob Bremer und sie dazu gefragt habe (mit der 45 grad faust im lead jab) hat mir keiner was von Bob Bremers einzigartigen Bodytyp erzählt, der es nur für ihn nötig machte die Faust einzudrehen.

was soll denn das sein?

Die WNG macht das wegen dem alignment von Elle und Speiche und die Beteiligung der Muskulatur.. Die Theorie dahinter soll sein, das beim horizontalen Fauststoss elle und speiche ineinander verdreht sind und die Unterarm Muskeln angespannt werden müssen um die Faust zu drehen was einen langsamer macht-
bei verticaler Faust sind zwar Elle und Speiche nicht verdreht, aber man muss trotzdem dem Faust "vertikal drehen" sozusagen, was wieder Muskelspannung erfordert.

Bruce Lee soll dann später der Ansicht gewesen sein, das "vertikale Faust" nicht (übertrieben) kerzen grade ausgedreht bedeutet (was wieder anspannung und "Mühe" erfordert), sondern der Sinn ist, das der Unterarm komplett entspannt ist und wie ein "Säbel" gehalten wird mit der Faust als Spitze.
Die natürliche und völlig entspannte Haltung des Unterarms äussert sich eben bei den meisten nicht in kerzengrade vertikal sondern leicht angewinkelt.
Da gehts nicht um Gradzahlen oder das Bob Bremer ein ganz besonderes geheimnis gelernt hat sondern um bodyfeel und relaxation :D

Wo in welchen Buch steht das denn so? Hat auch Tackett noch nie so erklärt. Vielleicht meinte Bruce auch nicht, das Bob Bremer´s (persönlich aussergewöhnlicher) bodytype das diktiere, sondern "your" im Sinne von Deiner, Unserer, Der allgemeine. (nicht dein Körper, sondern dein Körper).

Die andere Interpretation macht nämlich keinen Sinn da alle WNG Leute wegen der Stabilitäts- und Entspannungstheorie das machen, man es so im WNG curriculum unterrichtet mit dieser Begründung und einem einfachen Test und ganz sicher weder Jeremy noch Dennis noch Tackett Bob Bremers Körperbau teilen


Gruss
Wilfried

[cbJKD Wilfried]

die entspannte Unterarmhaltung, also die natürliche halt, dürfte sich bei den meisten in der ca. 45 gradhaltung der Faust äussern,

wer den "Ted Wong Test" mit der on guard position und der Endposition des straight lead kennt, wo einer gegen die Faust haut und man guckt ob noch was wackelt und nachgibt, kann das mal mit horizontaler, vertikaler und natürlicher Fausthaltung testen und dann sehen was für ihn am bequemsten ist - und was er für einen "Bodytype" hat :D

Oder halt an einer Wand, gegen den ausgestreckten lead punch lehnen.

Übrigends geht dann die powerline nicht mehr durch die unteren 3 knöchel sondern die mittleren 2. Auch das merkt man beim Testen sofort selber.

Gruß Wilfried

[jkdberlin]

Sorry, aber mir ist das völlig egal, wie und in welchem genauen Winkel Bruce Lee die Faust irgendwann zwischen 1967 - 1973 gehalten hat. Dieser von Wilfried beschriebene "Ted Wong Test" ist das einzig maßgebliche für mich. Es gibt eine bestimmte Haltung, in der bei mir alles zusammenpasst. Wenig Anspannung, relaxte Spannung, Stabilität im Unterarm und Schulter. Und genau da fühle ich mich wohl, wenn ich die Straight Lead so einsetze, wie es im JKD sein soll. Da gehe ich komplett konform mit Ralf, es kommt nicht auf den genauen Winkel an, sondern auf die Bestimmung und auf die Art und Weise des Einsatzes dieses Punches, was ihn zum JKD Straight Lead macht.
Alles andere wäre kopieren ohne Sinn und Verstand.

Grüsse

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Eben.
Deswegen wird auch keine "45,564 grad fausthaltung" unterrichtet, sondern "die relaxte".

Es ist also weder genau so-und-so viel Grad, aber auch nicht "völlig egal, kann jeder machen wie man will"...

dafür muss man "das" aber dann auch erstmal wissen, was dahinter steckt, und ich glaube, DA hapert es bei vielen vielleicht etwas

[SteFanJKD]

I asked him why did you tell me to use my straight lead with a 45 degree angled fist, when everybody uses the horizontal fist? Bruce said.. because your body structure dictates it!"
This again rules his interpretation of JKD when the actual person is more important than any stile or system"

I totally agree. I is just that I consider JKD the to be what dictated Bruce Lee's technique.

I have looked into this, in a certain body position the 45 degree works better than horizontal, but that is when the alignment of the shoulder, fist and hip is not perfectly Staight, giving the triangle principle and "the best" posture in relating force, the thing Bruce Lee considered JKD.

Bob is a big guy, maybe Bruce only helped Bob to find his best way, his truth in punching, and that was with 45 degree fist.


i think it is totally wrong to define JKD through the angle of a fist,, and calling other angles as something different.


Well, I don't find it totally wrong, it is just one oppinion out of many. I have found that the vertical fist defines what is JKD, if someone else defines it as 45 degre and another horizontal should not be an issue. The important thing is to have an open mind, have an open discussion about why we have taken the desicions we have taken, leave politics and "fuss2 out of it.


It would be wrong as well, if someone would dictate the target zone of a jeet tek. (for example: it only a jeet tek if the foot hits 5cm below the knee, anything lower is not a jeet tek) More than wrong.. this is not the purpose of the jeet tek.

You are absolutely right. Bruce Lee chose to use the heal and flat of the foot, not the "sokuto" or side of the foot like Karate, TKD etc. I feel this is the same discussion as wioth the Lead Straight. What if someone prefers to use the "Knifefoot", is it still Bruce Lee's JKD?

obviously to me it is not JKD because Bruce chose the heal/sole of foot for a reason as his JKD application, and then helped his student find what suits them just as he himself chose the vertical fist for a reason if it did not work for them.


Always remember the quote: If people say JKD is different from this or that, then let the name JKD be wiped out for what it is... only a name.

I love this quote. Obviously we must go by what Bruce Lee said JKD is. Bruce did not want anyone to simply copy his JKD, he wanted them to find out for themselves what their truth is. We should not need discussions if JKd is different from this or that. We should simply see JKD as JKD, Karate as karate, Boxing as Boxing, see the "it" for what it is and choose what "it" suits us the best

I think that the problem is when instructors try to convince their students that their punch is different from another punch to convince the students that their punch is the best and should choose their style that Bruce Lee said that "JKD should be wiped out" if this happened in his non-classical style of JKD, since JKD is a non-classiscal style, it is openminded, it sees things as they are and expects its students to either pick its techniques or find their truth elswehere there should not be any fuss in this process. JKD is JKD , Karate is karate and whatever style is whatever style.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

You are absolutely right. Bruce Lee chose to use the heal and flat of the foot, not the "sokuto" or side of the foot like Karate, TKD etc. I feel this is the same discussion as wioth the Lead Straight. What if someone prefers to use the "Knifefoot", is it still Bruce Lee's JKD?

Well, I use the heel and/or the flat foot because it feels better, is more stable, has a better alignment with my ankle and the rest of my leg, hip, body. Once again, the purpoe of the weapon and the technique is important for me. And that, for me, is JKD.

Greetings

[motörben]

Tja, hab mich wohl falsch ausgedrückt, hätte anstatt 'aka' lieber' bzw' schreiben sollen.

Natürlich ist die Straight Lead kein (boxtechnischer) Jab.
Aber es ist und bleibt ein gerader Schlag mit der Führhand.
Und als solcher DIE Grundlage, die man in 4 Jahren doch schon mal kennenlernen sollte.

Und zumindest in meiner Schule werden die Begriffe Jab und Führhand tatsächlich mehr oder weniger austauschbar benutz, genau wie Cross und Schlaghand. Nicht nur im JKD
Hat tatsächlich schon für einige Diskusionen gesorgt. Macht die Sache aber wohl einfacher für 'Neulige' zumal bei und auch viell crosstrainig betrieben wird ( damit meine ich jezt nicht den Schlag.....)


Trozdem, um beim eigendlichem Thema zubleiben.
Ja, die Straight Lead sollte man nach 4 Jahren auf jeden Fall kennen.
Nein, JKD ohne Straight Lead ist kein JKD

Wie diese Technik nun konkret BENANNT wird, ist wohl doch ein Problem von Schule/Trainer nicht von koregtem oder falschem JKD

[Tangkapan]

Als ich mit Tim und Jeremy trainiert habe und Bob Bremer und sie dazu gefragt habe (mit der 45 grad faust im lead jab) hat mir keiner was von Bob Bremers einzigartigen Bodytyp erzählt, der es nur für ihn nötig machte die Faust einzudrehen.

was soll denn das sein?

Die WNG macht das wegen dem alignment von Elle und Speiche und die Beteiligung der Muskulatur.. Die Theorie dahinter soll sein, das beim horizontalen Fauststoss elle und speiche ineinander verdreht sind und die Unterarm Muskeln angespannt werden müssen um die Faust zu drehen was einen langsamer macht-
bei verticaler Faust sind zwar Elle und Speiche nicht verdreht, aber man muss trotzdem dem Faust "vertikal drehen" sozusagen, was wieder Muskelspannung erfordert.

Bruce Lee soll dann später der Ansicht gewesen sein, das "vertikale Faust" nicht (übertrieben) kerzen grade ausgedreht bedeutet (was wieder anspannung und "Mühe" erfordert), sondern der Sinn ist, das der Unterarm komplett entspannt ist und wie ein "Säbel" gehalten wird mit der Faust als Spitze.
Die natürliche und völlig entspannte Haltung des Unterarms äussert sich eben bei den meisten nicht in kerzengrade vertikal sondern leicht angewinkelt.
Da gehts nicht um Gradzahlen oder das Bob Bremer ein ganz besonderes geheimnis gelernt hat sondern um bodyfeel und relaxation :D

Wo in welchen Buch steht das denn so? Hat auch Tackett noch nie so erklärt. Vielleicht meinte Bruce auch nicht, das Bob Bremer´s (persönlich aussergewöhnlicher) bodytype das diktiere, sondern "your" im Sinne von Deiner, Unserer, Der allgemeine. (nicht dein Körper, sondern dein Körper).

Die andere Interpretation macht nämlich keinen Sinn da alle WNG Leute wegen der Stabilitäts- und Entspannungstheorie das machen, man es so im WNG curriculum unterrichtet mit dieser Begründung und einem einfachen Test und ganz sicher weder Jeremy noch Dennis noch Tackett Bob Bremers Körperbau teilen


Gruss
Wilfried

ich hab mal nachgesehen.. steht in einem der Chinatown bücher

[Tangkapan]

I love this quote. Obviously we must go by what Bruce Lee said JKD is. Bruce did not want anyone to simply copy his JKD, he wanted them to find out for themselves what their truth is. We should not need discussions if JKd is different from this or that. We should simply see JKD as JKD, Karate as karate, Boxing as Boxing, see the "it" for what it is and choose what "it" suits us the best

I think that the problem is when instructors try to convince their students that their punch is different from another punch to convince the students that their punch is the best and should choose their style that Bruce Lee said that "JKD should be wiped out" if this happened in his non-classical style of JKD, since JKD is a non-classiscal style, it is openminded, it sees things as they are and expects its students to either pick its techniques or find their truth elswehere there should not be any fuss in this process. JKD is JKD , Karate is karate and whatever style is whatever style.

/SteFan

the bigest problem, at least in my opinion, is that many quotes and guidelines of Bruce Lee will be either to freely or to strict interpreted.
For instance.. Add whats specifically your own... on this quote many difine it as.. you can use and add whatever you want... wrong!
It perfectly fits to what we just said above.. sometimes a litte variation of an angle, because the guy is big, makes jkd work for him..

On the other hand, people tend to read and observe anything and everything BL did. ANd they take it as "the gosple truth" Wrong although..
Remeber when he wrote and said "my truth is not your truth..."

Since we all come from different backgrounds, different cultures and have different bodystructures, we must find the balance in between what works for us individually and maintaining the JKD Priciples and Structures.

One of my Students told me a funny thing.. He said, that he believes that out there are actually guys who would use the toilett ad the same time and frequent as Lee did, if they knew. This is not the purpose of JKD,,, to copy... If a student does that... copying others.. he is not doing JKD..
In the beginning we all copy.. we have to learn...
The learning stage... but after that you have the understanding and then the adaption... after these steps Freedom will set in.

[SteFanJKD]

Well, I use the heel and/or the flat foot because it feels better, is more stable, has a better alignment with my ankle and the rest of my leg, hip, body. Once again, the purpoe of the weapon and the technique is important for me. And that, for me, is JKD.

No, that is not "JKD", it is "your truth", it just happens that your truth is the same as Bruce Lee's ;)

What I am trying to say is that Bruce Lee wanted everybody to think like you have, he did not want anyone to train his JKD, his way of punching, kicking etc if they have not made a conscious desicion based upon research and an open mind.



the bigest problem, at least in my opinion, is that many quotes and guidelines of Bruce Lee will be either to freely or to strict interpreted.
For instance.. Add whats specifically your own... on this quote many difine it as.. you can use and add whatever you want... wrong!

well if we use quotes about JKD techniques we should use Bruce lee quotes. I think this is a inosanto quote and my oppinion is that this is more a quote how we find our truth, how we should mentally think. In finding your own truth it is important to

"Research ones own experience, absorb what is useful, reject what is useless and add what is especially your own."

You can absolutely follow the quote, since nowhere that it says that everything you choose will be JKD, you will only have found your truth, what bruce expected from his students. If you find "The Root of JKD, The facts of JKD, if you find what Bruce Lee considered JKD, you will have found JKD


On the other hand, people tend to read and observe anything and everything BL did. ANd they take it as "the gosple truth" Wrong although..
Remeber when he wrote and said "my truth is not your truth..."

I agree, we should not take Bruce lee's truth as the gospel truth, then we are simply copying him. We should consciously choose JKD as our "gospel truth" by reserarching our own experience", absorb what is usefull..... If we after this opeminded search find out that "his truth is the same as your own truth", I think that following this path as a "gospel truth will lead to the spontaneous, "No Form, "No style", "It hits all by itself" that Bruce Lee was talking about, Not only in JKD, but in all martial art tyles.


Since we all come from different backgrounds, different cultures and have different bodystructures, we must find the balance in between what works for us individually and maintaining the JKD Priciples and Structures.

I think that our personal truth is more important than anything else, this is what bruce Lee was saying. Our own background, culture and bodystructure should not be compromised because we "like" the principles and structures of JKD. If we compomise ourselves we have made a classical style out of JKD, we make Bruce Lee more important than ourselves. I think that when we don't need to balance anything, that everything feels just right, we have found our truth. Like you said


This is not the purpose of JKD,,, to copy... If a student does that... copying others.. he is not doing JKD..

I would add to this, if you feel the need to balance yourself to Bruce lee, you are not doing Bruce Lee's JKD.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

No, that is not "JKD", it is "your truth", it just happens that your truth is the same as Bruce Lee's ;)

No, its just the way "you" defines JKD for yourself...thanks not everybody does ist that way.
I know a big deal of people who have been there and think differently from your standpoint. That's okay with me...

[Bob Dubljanin]

Hi,
interesting thread, some great comments and pointers. Concerning the Jab/Str Lead dilemma, I would suggest you learn and practise both really well and research your own experience on form and function. No reason to get confused that others may arrive to different results, that is the nature of martial arts. Different strokes for different folks.

About the famous sayings "...just a name, jkd has no techniques, jkd is like you, etc..." I came to the conclusion that though proper context of Lees notes or writings one may come from at least 3 differnt point of views. Where the use of the term "JKD" is synanomous for: 1.) His personal training, 2.) Curriculum he is teaching to his students 3.) Umbrella term for Martial arts in general. Depending on the context the word JKD has a different meaning in those quotes. Now any debate on those sayings without proper context is futile and has to lead to argument and confusion.

just my 0,2 cts.

Bob Dubljanin

[Tangkapan]

Hi,
interesting thread, some great comments and pointers. Concerning the Jab/Str Lead dilemma, I would suggest you learn and practise both really well and research your own experience on form and function. No reason to get confused that others may arrive to different results, that is the nature of martial arts. Different strokes for different folks.

About the famous sayings "...just a name, jkd has no techniques, jkd is like you, etc..." I came to the conclusion that though proper context of Lees notes or writings one may come from at least 3 differnt point of views. Where the use of the term "JKD" is synanomous for: 1.) His personal training, 2.) Curriculum he is teaching to his students 3.) Umbrella term for Martial arts in general. Depending on the context the word JKD has a different meaning in those quotes. Now any debate on those sayings without proper context is futile and has to lead to argument and confusion.

just my 0,2 cts.

Bob Dubljanin

Hello Bob,
long time no see..
How is Cass?
Do you still have contact to the pendekar, or is it mainly Danny H. now?

Greetings
Ralf

[SteFanJKD]

No, its just the way "you" defines JKD for yourself...thanks not everybody does ist that way.
I know a big deal of people who have been there and think differently from your standpoint. That's okay with me...

It is okey with me also that others don't think like i do. But i would not say "thanks not", I simply think it is good that we share different oppinions ;)

It is also no surprise that you know a big deal of people who think differently because as we know my way of thinking is not so well represented in germany.


I came to the conclusion that though proper context of Lees notes or writings one may come from at least 3 differnt point of views. Where the use of the term "JKD" is synanomous for: 1.) His personal training, 2.) Curriculum he is teaching to his students 3.) Umbrella term for Martial arts in general.

You are right. I have an intresting experiment. If people say JKD is different than this or that, let the name of JKD be wiped out". This is intresting, what will we have then. Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

It is okey with me also that others don't think like i do. But i would not say "thanks not", I simply think it is good that we share different oppinions ;)

It is also no surprise that you know a big deal of people who think differently because as we know my way of thinking is not so well represented in germany.

/SteFan

we agree on that. Its the dilema that we are talking about an art, not a science, even when some people try to consider it otherwise.

[Hongmen]

Eben.
Deswegen wird auch keine "45,564 grad fausthaltung" unterrichtet, sondern "die relaxte".

Es ist also weder genau so-und-so viel Grad, aber auch nicht "völlig egal, kann jeder machen wie man will"...

dafür muss man "das" aber dann auch erstmal wissen, was dahinter steckt, und ich glaube, DA hapert es bei vielen vielleicht etwas

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead" (www.youtube.com/user/bailimtao?feature=mhum#p/u/12/ywkX8SxyYYc)!

Ist zwar kein zertifiertes JKD, hat aber grundlegend damit zu tun! Weil in meinem KK-Lebenslauf, Jun Fan eine große Rolle spielte (spielt)!

Gruß
Hongmen

[SteFanJKD]

Its the dilema that we are talking about an art, not a science, even when some people try to consider it otherwise.

This is intresting. To me JKD is both an artform as well as the science. I think it might has to do with the approach if The search itself (art) is JKD or if you find the same techniques as Bruce Lee (science) is JKD

The Selfexpression part of Bruce Lee's thinking is the art he was teaching through JKD. He said "Artistic skill, does not mean artistic perfection....the artistic activity does not lie in the art as such"

So if we see JKD as simply an artform, the art/JKD/science is not important it is that you "project an inner vision into the world".

If we simply see JKD as a science we concentrate on the artistic performance, we concentrte on the correct JKd On Guard , Footwork, Lead punch etc.

I think that the non-classical of JKD makes JKd both a science and an art.Finding ones own truth, that is the abjective of JKD is the art. When you dofind you truth you perfect it by using science.

So according to me If we have gone through our daily increase, we have absorbes what is useful and rejected what is useluss (the artform of JKD) and are left with the Bruce Lee On Guiard, footwork etc (the science of JKD) we are JKD practitioners. We express ourselves through JKD.


Here is an example of "straight lead"!

Although there is no CERTIFIED JKD, but has to do fundamentally with it! Because in my KK-CV, Jun Fan played a large role (playing)!

I don't see a straight Lead here :( This person is just flicking his hand out there, I can't realy see if there are any Hammer principle, hand before foot, three point landing and the person is definitely not hurt by the punch. Sure he is using tactics I can relate to JKD, but as far as giving idea how the Sraight Lead should look like I don't thin this is the best clip.

Using the lead hand like this is more what I would consider The JKd Jab, but then again, the clip does not show enough for me to make a good observation of what he is doing

/SteFan

[Gin Lai]

I see what you mean, Stefan. "Throwing garbage" comes to mind, a P.I.A./A.B.D. factor I use quite frequently that works just fine.

[jkdberlin]

This is intresting. To me JKD is both an artform as well as the science. I think it might has to do with the approach if The search itself (art) is JKD or if you find the same techniques as Bruce Lee (science) is JKD

The Selfexpression part of Bruce Lee's thinking is the art he was teaching through JKD. He said "Artistic skill, does not mean artistic perfection....the artistic activity does not lie in the art as such"

So if we see JKD as simply an artform, the art/JKD/science is not important it is that you "project an inner vision into the world".

If we simply see JKD as a science we concentrate on the artistic performance, we concentrte on the correct JKd On Guard , Footwork, Lead punch etc.

I think that the non-classical of JKD makes JKd both a science and an art.Finding ones own truth, that is the abjective of JKD is the art. When you dofind you truth you perfect it by using science.

So according to me If we have gone through our daily increase, we have absorbes what is useful and rejected what is useluss (the artform of JKD) and are left with the Bruce Lee On Guiard, footwork etc (the science of JKD) we are JKD practitioners. We express ourselves through JKD.

I can agree with that.
Music as an art has a science attached to it too. Culture even in the most artistic expressions like literature, painting, architecture etc. is the topic of several sciences.
Nevertheless, if we break it down to the individuum, the expression, the "like" or "dislike" we have an artform, a way of expression the inner artistic self.
Some like the cover song played exactly like the original, same tempo, same cadences, same rythm - perfect. Others like a total new approach to the topic, new instruments, new rythm - a total exression of the original theme through the now perfoming artist. Now we can argue if the song is still the same or if it's a totally new one. This leads us, like Tangkapan said already, undoubtly back to "original" vs. "concepts"...not worth it for me.

So the thing we were discussing, fits here too. For me it is the art of JKD if I do my Jet Tek with the heel or the flat of the foot and it is also JKD if I use the 45 degree turned punch for a straight lead, beacuse it fits my artistic expression or my feeling at that time frame. I use the vertical fist more in shorter range. For wider range, I use the likely 45 -60 degree turned fist. It serves the exact same purpose and does it job in the principles, concepts, tactics and strategies of JKD.
So I am definitly more concerened with the outcome in a certain set of given principles, then with the exact (scientific) way.
"Efficiency is anything that scores."

The major problem with the scientific way lies in the "theory" or "thesis" discussion of nature sciences. You won't have the reproductable results in combat between humans, you will not have the exact same setting, there is no laboratory way of scientific prove. Like one of my teachers said "in combat there are no guarantees".

Greetings

[jkdberlin]

I don't see a straight Lead here :(

Neither do I.
It is far away from anything that I would refer as a JKD Straight Lead Punch.

[Bearcat44]

Well, in my rookie (:)) opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwS7R7ukQ7U#at=212)

What do the JKD-Elderly (:D) say to this?

[FCVT]

Well, in my rookie (:)) opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwS7R7ukQ7U#at=212)

What do the JKD-Elderly (:D) say to this?

to me, this is definitly not a straight lead... its a mid-thing between jab and straight lead...

[cbJKD Wilfried]

while many think the straight lead in JFJKD has to be exactly done like this and that, there´s diffrent ways to throw them. The diffrence occurs depending on if you hit stationary, moving back or moving forward,

Stationary you use what for example Jerry Poteet calls theory of overlapping and concurring circles, the execution is not straight in and out, it´s a slight curve.

Then there is the straight lead with the "step out" where you only move your front foot. That´s like "half stationary". That´s what s been featured in the WNG clip.

Then you have the "Ted Wong JKD" straight lead mechanic with a full step, three point landing etc.

Then you have the straight lead moving backwards, which is thrown diffrently too, cause you need to wait for the rear heel to touch down before you can put a forward momentum into the punch, much like the Jerry Poteet execution.

It´s not "special" how these diffrences occur and no "secret knowledge" or "my punch is diffrent from other punches cause i know more".

There is only a limited amount of ways to put your weight behind the straight punch thrown from the lead while moving forward, backward and sideways or not moving at all and all of the JKD executions can be understood very quickly and tested against other methods to see if they re valid or if the instructor is just making it up to sound more clever than others.
If it doesnt make your punch harder, it´s BS.

I agree with Frank partially, while there is no lab to keep the same setting in a physical altercation due to the human factor, you can in a more limited way research speed, impact and power of a single or combination technique on equipment. If you can reproduce the "perfect punch" under this conditions and you work on application, meaning trying to reproduce the same speed, power, alignment etc while moving with an opponent you will probably become better than by not researching punching methods and start hitting each other right away.

I think the whole goal with MA training is : "avoid getting hit, while hitting yourself and with as little effort as possible"-
the first part comes from sparring and experience, the second part from punching/kicking techniques that result in knockout power when you hit.

A good balance of scientific approach and practical testing and application should be applied by anyone practising this or that form of JFJKD in my opinion.

Wilfried

[Bearcat44]

to me, this is definitly not a straight lead... its a mid-thing between jab and straight lead...

Would you please explain, why?

[SteFanJKD]

Some like the cover song played exactly like the original, same tempo, same cadences, same rythm - perfect. Others like a total new approach to the topic, new instruments, new rythm - a total exression of the original theme through the now perfoming artist. Now we can argue if the song is still the same or if it's a totally new one. This leads us, like Tangkapan said already, undoubtly back to "original" vs. "concepts"...not worth it for me.

It is defenitely worth to have an open discussion about this in my JKD approcah, to me JKD is about knowing your subject well, from all angles, a total and openmided observation of JKD.

to me it is very logical that there is a new approach with new instruments new rhytm there is need to argue if it is different, it is is like oranges and apples, no matter how much you want an apple to taste like oranges it will not

This leads me to the discussion about JKD, and I automatically get back to what I have said, it depends on if JKD is the search itself or what you find, if JKD is a "fruit" or an "apple", if JKD is about searching for any fruit you like or if JKD is to find an "apple" and on the way get the taste of other fruits to find out if apples are our favourute fruit.

The only difficulty is that we cannot say if JKD to Bruce Lee was about the search itself or if what he considered what he found as JKD, and tghis to me is defenitely worth discussiong if we want to have an openminded view upon our own JKD.


So I am definitly more concerened with the outcome in a certain set of given principles, then with the exact (scientific) way.
"Efficiency is anything that scores."

I am also more intrested with the outcome. Yes Efficiency is anything that scores, but is anything that scores efficiently JKD ;) I belive bruce Lee wanted everybody to find what the best way scored efficiently for them, he did not want them simply to copy what he felt scored efficiently for him in his JKD


The major problem with the scientific way lies in the "theory" or "thesis" discussion of nature sciences. You won't have the reproductable results in combat between humans, you will not have the exact same setting, there is no laboratory way of scientific prove. Like one of my teachers said "in combat there are no guarantees".

This takes me to the issue of "No form" and "without form". Obviously we cannot desect a "fight like a corpse", or try to "rap water into paper". But whatever will happen in a fight you must stand, move and punch in a specific way, you must have a plan how to stand, how to move and how to attack and defenese. This is the "form" you will be using in fighting, it is not the "form" of the fight itself.

I think that Bruce Lee said to train a technique/style until it is "No form" until your tools hit by itself is that you prepare for this outside the actual fight. If everytime you hit the heavy Bag, focus glove, shadowbox, pair up for partner traning and use the same response against a straight punch I belive that your chance of that particulat movemnets comes out in a fight, no mater how it is impossible to predict what comes. The fact is that there are hundred and hundreds of punches that can come in that straigt anagle, but it is stil a straight angle. The problem is when you have 10-20 responses to the same angle, change your stance, change you "style", then you probably are "without form2 since you have not perfected them into becoming spontanoeus, into your spine, you have not made you techniques "No form"

Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

So even without knowing what the oppopnent will do, he believed that his body would respond with the techniques he had trained 2to hit by itself". He simply didn't belive that the Karate and kung Fu approcah prepared hi for that, it was not "simply and direct", He liked Boxing, but it was not a complete system. What did he do? He found his own truth and wanted everybody to do the same if his contribution, JKD, did notwork for his students.

[SteFanJKD]

cbJKD Wilfried while many think the straight lead in JFJKD has to be exactly done like this and that, there´s diffrent ways to throw them. The diffrence occurs depending on if you hit stationary, moving back or moving forward,

If we are talking Jun Fan JKD, the history and evolution of Bruce lee's Fighting techniques, the daily Increase we will find many ways

This is why I feel it is nesessary to research the history of JKD, "the past" of JKD. By understanding the past we will understand the future. But the important thing is to live in the now.

Wlfried, you forgot Herb Jacksons favourite, the sk. Whipping Jab.


There is only a limited amount of ways to put your weight behind the straight punch thrown from the lead while moving forward, backward and sideways or not moving at all and all of the JKD executions can be understood very quickly and tested against other methods to see if they re valid or if the instructor is just making it up to sound more clever than others.

Furthermore, the way you position your body has to do with "postures in realting force". Bruce lee did a lot of research on the human anatomy and physics when he created JKD. I have tested a lot of variations during the years, I have tried the half twisted fist, I have tried punching like a boxer when moving etc.

I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..

I put this punch in the same category like Bob Bremers. I believe it is a personal approach to making a Lead straight work for them when the Straight Lead Bruce Lee created in JKD did not work for them.

To me JKD is what worked for Bruce, what took Ted 6 months to learn, the same punch I have chosen to start my daily decrease with.

If then Bob Bremers way, Herb jacksons way or any other way works best we have all found our truth. We are all following Bruce Lee's way of thinking.

If people say that my way is simply copying Bruce or I say that doing something else is not JKD, Bruce Lee's truth simply your own truth is not important. It is just selfknowledge, and as long as we have open discussions "without fuss" about this JKD will live on.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

So even without knowing what the oppopnent will do, he believed that his body would respond with the techniques he had trained 2to hit by itself". He simply didn't belive that the Karate and kung Fu approcah prepared hi for that, it was not "simply and direct", He liked Boxing, but it was not a complete system. What did he do? He found his own truth and wanted everybody to do the same if his contribution, JKD, did notwork for his students.

Once again, although this sums it up pretty much for me, it might not be his, Bruce Lee's, JKD it is arguable if it still JKD or if it is something totally different. In the first part you can argue that JKD died with Bruce Lee or if you have to be a clone and move exactly a 100% like him. In the later part the question remains to be answered where do you draw the line. What is necessary to be called JKD, what is in the realm of personal interpretation or individual preferences or abilities.

Greetings

[angHell]

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead" (www.youtube.com/user/bailimtao?feature=mhum#p/u/12/ywkX8SxyYYc)!



Wo? :confused:

Mit viel gutem Wollen sieht man einen Pak/FS - wobei Du Deinem Schlag so sehr hinterherfällst/reinlehnst, dass das nur mit sonem dummy möglich ist...





Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.


It would look like JKD? You cannot wipe all out, otherwise you have nothing/all.



Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

I think that is ideology and can not be proven. Every MA is designed for the human body. Maybe some use more "natural" behaviour than others - or others try to build the body through training the MA - but this is nothing that JKD has for its own...




I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..


Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?



Well, in my rookie (:)) opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwS7R7ukQ7U#at=212)

What do the JKD-Elderly (:D) say to this?

Mainly the beginning punches look for me like SL!? Not a jab - the later punches look more like jab. But what do the JKD-men say to this? I've seen a lot of much more bad SLs....

[SteFanJKD]

what is in the realm of personal interpretation or individual preferences or abilities.

To me this question is easy to answer. If there is an interpretation it is not JKD, it is simply your own truth. As Bob Bremer said "Jun Fan JKD is what Bruce lee was doing when he was doing it"

I consider a person a JKD practitoner if he is lucky to be one of those 1 out of 10 000 that Bruce said could handle JKD. By that I mean that The On Guard, footwork etc works for you without indvidual interpretation.

Whatever intepretation is needed, however small I consider it a personal truth. But if we are talking about personal refinemnet, that is something else. Take the Lead punch. It took Ted 6 months to learn it, he has refined it by reseraching the technique taught him by Bruce Lee,not changing anything, only his understanding of why Bruce chose it.


I think that is ideology and can not be proven. Every MA is designed for the human body. Maybe some use more "natural" behaviour than others - or others try to build the body through training the MA - but this is nothing that JKD has for its own...

Is every martial art designed for the Human Body. well, if you call imitating a crane beak or a tiger claw with the human Body you are correct.

What i mean is that Bruce Lee studied the vulnerable points of the Human Body as well as the sceletal anatomy when he chose his On Guard. If you want to protect the groin I would say that it would look a specific way if you base it on the Human Body. The Boxing Guard is base upon the Human Body, but I would say it is not based upon protecting the human reproction organ, ist it ;)

What JKD has for its own is that it has a specific way to "build the body through MA". By changing this, having an On Guard that leaves the groin open and say that
- well I KNOW my groin is open so it is no problem
and therefore say that they have an On Guard where the groin is protected is not JKD to me.

Just so that my comments will not be mistaken as I am saying "this is better than that" I want to remind everybiody that it is simply my point of view, not an ultimate truth.



Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?

This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.

The other thing is that the curving motion affects the posture in relating force at impact. according to me the energy should me concentrate straight all through the target, by starting a curving motion the timing is much harder, you might miss the alignment/triangle principle of the shoulder, fist and hip and therefore loose power according to Newtons law of "for every action there is an oposite and equal reaction"


Mainly the beginning punches look for me like SL!? Not a jab - the later punches look more like jab. But what do the JKD-men say to this? I've seen a lot of much more bad SLs....

I saw other things than the Fist that I think we should concentrate on when it comes to a straight Lead.

Firts of all. I have said that JKd is based upon the Human Anatomy. How do we walk? We land on the heal and then the toes. According to TWJKD The Lead Straight is supposed to land on the Heal, it has to do with posture in relating Force ;)

Before kicks Bruce Lee had a variation with a small motion of the Leading Foot. When it comes to punching Hand always goes before the foot, this has also to do with Postures in relating force, what in TWJKD is called Three point Landing.

When it comes to the actual punch I think it demonstrates the difference between a jab and a Straight Lead. Straight Lead is a Power Punch, The jab is a "feeler"

Just some of my thoughts, not an ultimate truth ;)

/SteFan

[Tangkapan]

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead" (www.youtube.com/user/bailimtao?feature=mhum#p/u/12/ywkX8SxyYYc)!

Ist zwar kein zertifiertes JKD, hat aber grundlegend damit zu tun! Weil in meinem KK-Lebenslauf, Jun Fan eine große Rolle spielte (spielt)!

Gruß
Hongmen

No straight lead there..
Maybe a glimps of a fake eye-jab

[Hongmen]

No straight lead there..
Maybe a glimps of a fake eye-jab

O.k., no straight lead! I can live with that! Thx you all for the information!

Hongmen

[angHell]

This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.


Where do you think is something said about a curving line:


Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

?

Don't see it.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

The problem with this discussion is,
that the TW camp seemed to have agreed on a unique definition of terms that are used completely diffrently by other camps.

It seems like TED WONG JEET KUNE DO and Ted Wong´s Jeet Kune Do are used for BRUCE LEE`S JEET KUNE DO and BRUCE LEE`S PERSONAL WAY TO EXPRESS JEET KUNE DO.

It also seems like they dont call the "original" JKD system, build around 1965, termed in 1967 and and taught e.g. in Bruce Lee´s chinatown school as a general curriculum that contained trapping, grappling, locks, throws etc JEET KUNE DO, they call it JUN FAN GUNG FU.

That is backed up by the certificates of the school simply being rank certificates of the institute, while the JKD ones were only issued to individuals taught by Bruce Lee personally for an extended period of time.

(what we dont know of course, since we ve never been there, is: did Bruce Lee teach HIS OWN PERSONAL JKD to these individuals, or a personalized, tailor made approach for them - we have to take his student´s words for it)

They further believe that Ted Wong was doing exactly what bruce lee himself did and what he intended jeet kune do to be used like.

They believe Ted Wong didnt change a single thing but devoted a great deal of his life to analyse bruce lee´s notes, influences, books PLUS his exact movements and habits and execution of techniques and came (through scientific research) to the conclusion, that the exact Bruce Lee way is the physical optimum backed up by science of movement and human anatomy.

To me personally the key to Bruce Lee´s personal Jeet Kune Do doesnt lie solely in the physical execution itself. The physical execution is a guideline, a form that is close to perfect for the intended purpose!!!.

The human factor however will some people have their own truth, because under fighting conditions you cannot always expect to be able to work with perfect form.

I think when in training you can give lets say 90% perfect techniques, on the street, in sparring it ll probably be more like 50% or 40% when shit hits the fan. So training as close to the optimum form as often as possible might lead to the practitioner raising their "efficiency under stress" to 65 or 70%.

To me personally the key to bruce lee´s jeet kune do is in the tactics and strategy necessary to be able to apply the tools at all!

and as far as my understanding of TWJKD goes, which is still limited, most of what makes TWJKD is not the 4 or 5 punches and the 3 or 4 kicks, it´s practising the tactics and strategy in sparring that will result in timing and skill in applying the technique.
So learning good form in technique is essential, yet only the beginning to have a starting point from where to archieve skill in applying the tools with close to perfect form.

To me that is (the late) Bruce Lee´s Jeet Kune Do: correct physical execution of physical technique in combination with the 6 pillars of TWJKD system:

stance
footwork
balance
alignment (postures in relaying force)
distance control
recovery

And that´s what it is. It is not "the gospel truth" in martial arts or the latest word concerning the science of movement.
It is the balance of all above factors, a balance between mobility and stability, a balance between power and recovery, etc.

There is punches more powerful than the straight lead, yet the combination of speed, power, deceptiveness, recovery etc makes it a great first strike.

There is stances more stable than the JKD on guard position, yet it provides a great combination of stability and mobility and alignment for the straight lead and lead leg kicks.

if i would go on, it would become clear that the Bruce Lee JKD was build around the straight lead, stance, hook kick and a set of strategies, tactics and principles. It doesnt change however, that Bruce himself taught other stuff under the "label" JKD in his lifetime and this "general" or "outdated" Jeet Kune Do is still JKD, was conceived by Bruce Lee and should be preserved also, cause it may contain someone´s "truth" diffrent from BLs.

Wilfried

...

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Zitat von SteFanJKD
Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.

That is a really great post in my opinion. Although the selection of quotes is highly motivated by Stefan´s original point of view, it sums it up pretty well how to get an idea what to look for
Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

Where do you think is something said about a curving line:

I was expalining the Herb jacksom "whipping Jab". Was't there a question about this?



Don't see it.

Well if you explain what you don't see I will answer you the best way I can


Wilfried, It is time for my morning training, but I will get back to your comments. I chose these quotes for a reason. I was actually hoping that someone would choose other quotes and then we would openly share oppinions on ALL quotes from ALL motivations and what we look for.

I hope to see some more quotes where the name "JKD" is left out when I log on the next time.

/SteFan

/SteFan

[SteFanJKD]

I just had to look up this


Zitat von SteFanJKD

I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..


Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?


My answer to this question was



Zitat:
Zitat von SteFanJKD


This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.


Where do you think is something said about a curving line:

It is the curving line motion in the Whipping Jab that is not "direct" Are you satified with the answer?

Now I am even more late for my training :(

/SteFan

[Sullivan]

Mal was anderes:

In diesem Zusammenhang ist auch das Buch "Jack Dempsey championship fighting".

Mal nach dem PDF googeln, gibt's im Netz als Download.

In diesem Buch aus den 50er Jahren wird das Prinzip schon beschrieben (vertical fist/45grad, Powerline, Falling Step...).

Ich denke das ist auch für's JKD interessant, nicht nur um mal zu sehen wo Bruce Lee seine Informationen zusammengetragen hat.


Gruß

[angHell]

I was expalining the Herb jacksom "whipping Jab". Was't there a question about this?


Yes.




It is the curving line motion in the Whipping Jab that is not "direct" Are you satified with the answer?



Ok. I don't know anything about the Herb Jackson "whipping jab". But in the quote you wrote I don't see (recognize/understand) anything indirect or curving. You know that "whipping" has nothing to do with a curving line?
I used a translation tool:
piska, piskrapp, gissel, stålvisp, vpiska, spöa, ge stryk, vispa

That was my point, if you know how this punch look like and I don't - maybe you are right. But in the quote I can not understand what you mean.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

"non classical, simple and direct" is also a training mentality.
originally i posted a lengthy text trying to use karate training as an analogy but then my internet crashed :D

[SteFanJKD]

It seems like TED WONG JEET KUNE DO and Ted Wong´s Jeet Kune Do are used for BRUCE LEE`S JEET KUNE DO and BRUCE LEE`S PERSONAL WAY TO EXPRESS JEET KUNE DO.


Well, I can only speak for myself, not for the rest of the TW Camp. I have decided to call TWJKD for JKD because it follows the principles of JKD. I am not saying that TWJKD is what Bruce Lee would be doing if he was alive today. I am simply sying that I myself believe that this is what Bruce would have been doing if he was alive today.

I have trained with many instructors looking for what I consider JKD is, I found it in TWJKD, the way Ted expresses HIS JKD fits my own expression. I train TWJKD, I perpetuate Ted wongs teachings. it has nothing more to do with Bruce Lee than that he is the founder of our system.


It also seems like they dont call the "original" JKD system, build around 1965, termed in 1967 and and taught e.g. in Bruce Lee´s chinatown school as a general curriculum that contained trapping, grappling, locks, throws etc JEET KUNE DO, they call it JUN FAN GUNG FU.

That is backed up by the certificates of the school simply being rank certificates of the institute, while the JKD ones were only issued to individuals taught by Bruce Lee personally for an extended period of time.

As a TWJKD representative I don't call what was being taught as JKD simply because I belive it is misgiuding when somebody says that they trained JKD and were Bruce Lee's JKD students simply because they trained at his school.. Even dan Inosanto cals what was being taught at the school jun fan Gung Fu, the base for the personal evolution of JKD.

Some people say that they trained JKD in the jun fan Gung Fu insitute with dan Inosanto and this makes them JKD students under Bruce Lee. It clearly states that you had to be personally taught by Bruce Lee to achieve a JKd rank. If we look at the curriculum of his private Training and schools there is a difference. My oppinion is that there is too much Trapping, he had the Kicking sets in his school, even after the name JKD was coined. He also had no reference to JKD on the certificates given at his L.A school. This is why I refer to what was taught privately by Bruce was JKD and what was taught at his school as jun fan Gung Fu.


They further believe that Ted Wong was doing exactly what bruce lee himself did and what he intended jeet kune do to be used like.

They believe Ted Wong didnt change a single thing but devoted a great deal of his life to analyse bruce lee´s notes, influences, books PLUS his exact movements and habits and execution of techniques and came (through scientific research) to the conclusion, that the exact Bruce Lee way is the physical optimum backed up by science of movement and human anatomy.

Again, I can only speak for myself and not the rest of the Ted wong family. I have always seen ted teaching nothing more than what he personally thinks what JKD would look like if Bruce was alive. He does exactly the same as Inosanto, it just happens that ted belives differentli. As I see it neither Inosanto or Ted does something simply "exacltly like Bruce without thinking"

I know that ted has devoted a lot of time to reserach the material of Boxing, Fencing and other material Bruce Left behind. But as far as reseraching and trying to duplicate his movements and habits and saying that he choice the techniques simply because it was the way Bruce did it is nothing I have seen. Ted only listened to the science and theory of JKD, he made his desicions simply on science and theory abpout JKD. As his student the reason why I follow his JKD has nothing to do with the fact that they look like Bruce lee's.


and as far as my understanding of TWJKD goes, which is still limited, most of what makes TWJKD is not the 4 or 5 punches and the 3 or 4 kicks, it´s practising the tactics and strategy in sparring that will result in timing and skill in applying the technique.
So learning good form in technique is essential, yet only the beginning to have a starting point from where to archieve skill in applying the tools with close to perfect form.

To me TWJKD is all about those few specific kicks punches and other techniques he has chosen as his JKD. The tactics, strategy etc he teaches to make this simplicity workable I have seen many JKD teachers teach. What makes teds approach special to me that he keeps his teaching as simple as his JKD, "limited" to these 4-5 punches or 3-4 kicks. He doesn't "fool around" with a lot of techniques simply to "proove apoint", teach his students timing and skill in application.

I hope that I have made a contribution to understanding TWJKD If I have somehow made the wrong impression what TWJKD is alla about.



That was my point, if you know how this punch look like and I don't - maybe you are right. But in the quote I can not understand what you mean.

My mistake, I believed that everyone was familiar with what the whipping Jab looks like, that like a whipslash it involves a curving snapping energy to concentrate the energy.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

interesting how observations differ sometimes.

i have seen other instructors teach more or less the same techniques as TW obviously did, sometimes as an alternative way of execution, but have never seen anyone else besides him and his students teach the (fencing) tactics and strategy to make the "TWJKD"-techniques work without having to "go back" and employ a boxing/kickboxing or wing chun mindset at times.

What attracts me to TWJKD is that it not only imitates the movements of Bruce Lee and leaves you guessing whether you could be the "1 of the 10.000" that can make JKD work, but it actually contains the "how to" as well as the "when to".

When i saw P.Chan for the first time, i saw for the first time ever how to fight with ONLY these few techniques, delievered from a fencing based on guard, applied with the mindset of a fencer and how exactly the footwork relates to that.

That´s what made me a believer, that this actually works and one can train to use it (Bruce Lee´s personal way of applying
Jeet Kune Do) without needing the backup of boxing/kickboxing and wing chun be necessary for when shit hits the fan and you cant afford to play BL anymore.

That excerpt gives a small glimpse and i have been told that Sifu Ted moved exactly the same way when he was in his prime.

YouTube - TWJKD Tulsa 2010 Day1 Highlights (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IFznlebXYM)

I already asked if victor will do a highlight clip featuring Patrick like he did one with Bob and Bill and Rodney, but it seems he hasnt got around to it yet.
EDIT:

Concerning the use of terms: i respect and understand why you among others call the actual curriculum or the art taught at the schools JFGF to avoid confusion with his later developements.

However Bruce Lee himself called that material JKD. So it is like i said, an agreement to use the term in a specific way, to use TWJKD for Bruce lee´s personal way of fighting and term Bruce Lee´s Jeet Kune Do program that was taught at this time in his schools "Jun Fan Gung Fu" while the printed training outlines by Bruce Lee that contained a progression of training and were handed out to his Chinatown School students as well as his Oakland JKD students, and the outlines he gave to Taky Kimura were labelled: "Basic techniques of JEET KUNE DO" and "Six week lesson plan for Jeet Kune Do", the last one being dated September 19th, 1967. It was even bearing the Institute´s name and adress, so there is no mistake that Bruce lee himself did not distinguish Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do and did not say, indicate or write that the program taught at the school was "JFGF" opposed to "JKD" that he only taught privately.

What is true however is, that the "JKD certificates" were only issued to his private students, while the rank certificates, WHICH MANY DONT KNOW!!!!!!!! dont indicate a rank reflecting skill in JKD, but how long a student had been training at the institute, at least in the LA chinatown school. Only the instructor (inosanto) was made rank 3 right away, and he promoted students according to their (written down) attendance at the institute.

Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

interesting how observations differ sometimes.

Yes, and this is how it should be in JKD and here it is were you and I are different


What attracts me to TWJKD is that it not only imitates the movements of Bruce Lee and leaves you guessing whether you could be the "1 of the 10.000" that can make JKD work, but it actually contains the "how to" as well as the "when to".

What attracts me to TWJKD has nothing to do with imitating Bruce Lee. If I was intrested in TWJKD and only see what imitates Bruce Lee I would call myself a jun fan JKD practitioner.

I train TWJKD becuase I felt that what ted Wongs says makes sense to me, he shares my point of view what JKD is alla about. I have said it before. I started to train with Ted because of my intrest in Bruce Lee and his JKD. It did not take me long before my intrest in ted Wong and his JKD was what I was intrested in.

So when somebody says that that Ted Wong is simply imitating Bruce Lee movements I must honestly say that I have a realy difficult time to say that I respect their point of view.

I have never trained with Bruce lee so I respect that there are different points of view on his teachings. but when it comes to Ted, my teacher, I hope that I am not alone to be a little bit offended by somebody saying that Ted imitates Bruce Lee.

To me JKD is 100% about Ted Wong. Bruce lee is the founder of JKD, but I follow Ted Wong 100%, TWJKD is to me his own truth in JKD, it is a free choice, it has nothing to do with Bruce Lee, it simply is that Both ted and Bruce share the same truth, and I found my truth in Ted wongs guidance.

/SteFan

[cbJKD Wilfried]

i meant it does not only imitate like others do, it has substance to it and still looks like BL.

Judging from the looks of it alone,
i personally wasnt very impressed on first sight, since at first it looked to me like bad and weak kickboxing, with a seminar being taught on basics for over 100 € that i considered essential (steps, focus mitts, bobbing & weaving, no details were covered) and thought that could be learned at any boxing gym -and better!- and that you could probably join a boxing gym for a whole year for the money.

While i still attended at least 2 more seminars by Ted Wong in the Netherlands and the one in germany hosted by my instructors who were James & George´s reps here in germany at that time, hoping something else will be taught, i didnt correct my view on that until recently when i had the chance to train in Tulsa and get more "in-depth"-Training and was able to talk to Sifu Ted, talk to and watch his senior instructors perform and explain and talking to Allen Joe.

Initially i was just going to see Allen Joe :D
I am more than happy i had the opportunity to see what Sifu Ted was like as a person, and looking back in retrospect of his passing now, it was a significant night for me at scott´s house.

I know our paths to TWJKD were a lot diffrent, but am very interested what draw you to and let you stick with Sifu Ted´s interpretation of the art in the first place

Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

I know our paths to TWJKD were a lot diffrent, but am very interested what draw you to and let you stick with Sifu Ted´s interpretation of the art in the first place

I have pretty much all my life done things my way. I remember in 5-6 th grade when RockaBilly was very famous. The thing was that i liked Kiss and Heavy metal more, and even i was maybe 1 out of 3-4in the whole town, the only one in my agegroup I stuck to Kiss whatever everybody said.

I have been the same in Martial arts. I have always asked question when i was not satisfied. You can imagine that it was not popular as a green belt to challenge a Black belt with questions and wanting a concrete answer. Mostly I got answers like, "train a few more yeras and you will understand" or that I should simply be quiet.

Then I became more and more intrested in JKD. From the beginning I was not satisfied with the answers i got when I went to Concepts seminars and asked question based upon my own point of view on JKD.

Then I met Ted Wong. It was love at first sight. First of all the techniques he showed made sense to me, If I asked him something I finally got answers. He could not only demonstrate the techniques, he could also explain why he had chosen them.

Belive me, after all these years I still reserach martial arts, I buy every book, instructional video I get my hands on. I still buy my monthly martial arts magazines and study them.. I have exactly the same attitude I have had all my life. But the thing is that as the years go by I simply find things in my reserach that makes me understand TWJKD better.

Before I made reserach and found material about my On Guard, my Fotwork etc that I found usable, but it was never what was being taught to me by my instructors before ted. It seamed like all my thousand ans thousands of pages with notes had prepared me for TWJKD.

To be totally honest. There is only one thing that I don't agree 100% with ted. When in CloseFighting I prefer a Leg check, Ted says that it is allright to open up a little bit since "both hands are moving". But this is pretty much the only thing during 16 years that I have found hat I think differently, and belive me, my main ambition is to proove ted wrong, just as i have done with all my previous instructors;)

SteFan

[cbJKD Wilfried]

I see!
I am really sorry you didnt have any good instructors in the other arts before that were able to answer your questions. I blackbelt should be able to answer a green belts questions and know the style and what he is doing inside out.

On the other hand, that draw you to JKD, which was a good thing.

I guess now we do understand a lot better what drives you.

have a good day, leaving for training now

Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

I guess now we do understand a lot better what drives you.

Personally I am glad if people understand me better, but when it comes to JKD what drives me is of no importnace. If I am intrested in marketing myself as a instructor it would of course be important to make sure that everybody knows what drives me, but when it comes to simply sharing JKD experience and knowledge, what drives us should not be important, what drives us is realy a hindrance to a complete openminded attitude towards JKD


Even if somebody doesn't understand my "drive" and the way I look at JKD it should not effect their way of reading what I am saying, then they are not reading with an open mind.

This is what I am trying to say, when people say that they are tired of the politics etc in JKD I think that they are too hang up on what drives the person who they are arguing with.

I am not saying that I am 100% succesfull, but I try only read what is being said and not think too much about what drives a person to say something. I am only intrested in JKD, not what drives every JKD practitioner I have an debate with. I believe that if more would only be intrested in JKD we would not have any "fuss" in the JKD world.

/SteFan

[re:torte]

Ich würde gerne noch eine daran anknüpfende Frage stellen:

Macht die Straight Lead nur Sinn wenn man "fechtet" oder ist sie ganz normal in das "kick-thai-boxen" zu integrieren, dass viele Conceptler machen?

[SteFanJKD]

Straight Lead makes sense only if one "refutes, or is it normal to integrate into the" kick-thai-boxing "that make many Conceptler?

sometimes the Googletrasnlator is nor updated.

But to answer your question I would say that the JKD Lead straight is a specific technique, and sure, you can use that specific technique into "kick-thai-Boxing".

All I am saying is that it doesn't make your "kick-thai-Boxing" JKD simply because you mix a JKD JKD technique into another style. What I am saying is that if you find a technique that you feel will benefit your chosen Martial art one should used it. But when you use a tecnique from another style one should be respectful to that style and give it credit.

It is not right to BJJ to take their tecnique and call it JKD, and it is of course just as wrong to Bruce Lee either to take something and call it JKD.

/SteFan

[motörben]

it is of course just as wrong to Bruce Lee either to take something and call it JKD.

/SteFan

A very interesting point, and a good one



Und, nur nebenbei, irgendwie fehlt mir persönlich noch der Unterschied zwischen Straight Lead und J...ähm, dem was in den JKD Concepts als Jab bezeichnet wird. Ich habe den Ausdruck Straight Lead im Unterricht noch nie bewußt gehört.
Für uns IST der Jab eine Straight Lead
Schlechter Trainer? 'falsches JKD' ? Oder persönliche planlosigkeit?

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Nein! die straight lead ist kein "normaler jab". Es gibt kein "JKD Concepts"!!! Es gibt nur Jun Fan Gung Fu, Jeet Kune Do und irgendwas anderes :D

die straight lead kann nicht aus einer box/kickboxstellung (toe to heel) gemacht werden ohne den stand zu verändern. Im Augenblick des Auftreffens bilden die Faust, ellbogen, schultern eine grade linie.

Im Jun fan Gung Fu wird dieser schlag weder ausgiebig trainiert, noch irgendwo in den drills oder serien grossartig auf Anwendung geübt.

Es wird wohl "gezeigt" aber nur so am Rande. Jun fan Gung Fu ist zum grössten Teil Boxen, Kickboxen mit wing chun elementen, wenig intercepting.

Im WNG old school JKD zB wird die straight lead benutzt, genauso wie die leg obstruction oder der stop kick, aber nur als "first strike". Dafür wird beim straight lead der hintere Fuss auf dem fussballen ausgedreht um die struktur für den straight lead schaffen zu können.

Intercepting wird dann zB in 4 corner drills trainiert, wobei nach dem stop hit/kick mit normalen Boxkombinationen weiter gearbeitet wird, ähnlich der Serien in Inosanto´s Jun Fan Gung Fu, nur "freier".

Im WNG group JKD, das "zeitlich" zwischen JFGF und TWJKD anzusiedeln ist, (taktisch auch meiner Meinung nach) werden die "Interceptions" wie straight lead, jeet tek, leg obstruction und jam als first hit benutzt, nachdem in eine kickboxing struktur gewechselt wird bzw es wird aus dieser gekämpft und sie wird nur zum intercepting verändert.

Im TWJKD wird bis auf close range immer in der "Fechtposition" gekämpft, die auf den Einsatz von straight lead, front/hook kick etc ausgelegt ist. Die erforderliche Distanz wird versucht über gute Fußarbeit zu halten. Es wird nicht, wie zB im JFGF oder im WNG JKD je nach Bedarf zwischen einem Fecht-, Kickbox- oder Wing Chun "Mindset" und noch wichtiger "delivery structure" gewechselt.

Das Mindset bleibt 90% Fechten, das alignment und die ganze on guard etc auch.

Das ist zB meiner Meinung nach der grösste Unterschied zwischen TWJKD und WNGJKD, TWJKD ist fechten im mindset und technik/aufbau/ausführung.
WNGJKD ist fechten mindset im Sinne von Taktik und Ideen, die technische Orientierung ist eher ein rechts vorne kickboxing system. Es ist sozusagen die Stufe zwischen Wing Chun/ JF Kickboxing und dem 90% Fechten-JKD.

Ob und wie in Deiner Schule die straight lead gezeigt, geübt und als "Haupttechnik" benutzt wird, oder eben doch der jab, wissen wir nicht.

Da ich relativ viel vom "Jun fan Gung Fu"-Programm kenne, tippe ich darauf, das kein besonders grosser Fokus darauf gelegt wird und auch nicht gross geübt wird damit zu kämpfen, bestenfalls übt ihr ihn als "Interception" wie bei der WNG und dann wird aber wieder "normal" geboxtgekickt/getrappt um das Ding zu beenden.

I stand corrected anytime,
Wilfried

[motörben]

Noch mal; mir ist schon klar, das die Straight Lead kein 'boxtechnischer' Jab ist.
Ich frag mich nur, warum wir dann immer nur von Jab sprechen, und die Straight Lead garnicht als solche behandeln.

Leztendlich ist ein Name wohl doch nur ein Name

[cbJKD Wilfried]

oh mann. Nein es ist nicht nur ein Name. Was gibt es da nicht zu verstehen, das ein jab und ein JKD straight lead zwei komplett unterschiedliche Bewegungen sind? Entweder macht ihr straight lead, oder jab, oder straight lead und jab bei Euch und nennt alles gleich, ja dann liegt es am Trainer.

Sagt ihr zum cross und zum hook auch jab? das macht die Kombinationen dann leichter.

Nur weil du den jab mit vertikaler Faust machst, ist es kein straight lead. dann ist es ein vertikaler Jab.

Wenn Du Deinen Stand und Dein Kampferverhalten so ausgerichtet hast, das der "jab" schwächer ist als der "cross" und nur zu dessen vorberitung dient, ist es keine straight lead.

Wenn fast alle Kombinationen immer jab, cross, hook, cross, kick sind, ist es keine straight lead, sondern ein jab.

Kombinationen aus einem stand, der auf straight lead ausgerichtet ist, sind zb: straight lead, straight lead, low straight lead, lead hook, lead hook kick, sowas in der Richtung.

Das sollten jetzt genug infos sein, damit du feststellen kannst, ob Du straight lead übst in deinem Training oder jab. Der Terminus ist nicht austauschbar oder bezeichnet mehr oder weniger dasselbe. Es sind zwei verschiedene Bewegungen, mit verschiedener Idee, die ein verschiedenes alignment benötigen.

gruß Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

Und, nur nebenbei, irgendwie fehlt mir persönlich noch der Unterschied zwischen Straight Lead und J...ähm, dem was in den JKD Concepts als Jab bezeichnet wird. Ich habe den Ausdruck Straight Lead im Unterricht noch nie bewußt gehört.
Für uns IST der Jab eine Straight Lead
Schlechter Trainer? 'falsches JKD' ? Oder persönliche planlosigkeit?


I think i understand this statement without putting it into the Google translator.

It is no surprise that you have this point of view. It is correct according to the JKD Concepts approach. this is exactly why linda lee started the Jun fan JKD nucleous. This point of view was viewed as the only point of view.

What is now being presented is simply another point of view, The jun fan JKD point of view. What is important is that we keep an open mind, that we choose our personal point of view, either based upon the teachings of the Jun fan JKd approach, of which the TWJKD is simply one approach, or the JKd Concepts approach of which PFS, IMB...are some examples, after having reserached both approaches equaly, with an open mind and without "Fuss"

So if someone has never got this information about the Straight Lead before, student or instructor, they should be happy that they now get this information on this Forum. We should get a positive discussion, not the typical "politics", "fuss" discussions that discussions about JKD usually turns into, shouldn't we ;)

/SeFan