crazysource
03-07-2004, 16:46
das hier hab ich im netz gefunden. vielleicht interessant für die leute glauben vor 30 jahren hat man beim kämpfen noch nie gegen grappler, gekämpft. oder die alte vt-garde hätte keine erfahrung auf diesem gebiet.
R Clausnitzer
Junior Member
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 15
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
True. Wong Sifu also never got the benefit of internet advice
on grappling, kicking and other things.
And, did he "perform" for prospective studentsbe fore they decided to be his student?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Joy
Trust this finds you in good health and spirits.
Nevertheless, I am disappointed with the questioning tone of your post , as it it seems to come from either a significant lack of knowledge about WSL's history and/or doubt about the accuracy of this history.
As you and other readers may have noticed, I am a stickler for accuracy and when I do post, which is infrequently, it's more often than not to set the record straight.
As someone who was there not long after the beginnings of modern Wing Chun in Hong Kong and has been exposed to Wing Chun longer than probably anyone on this or any other forum (in Australia, for example, I can think only of Zopa Gyatso who has been around for a similar period), I speak with some measure of authority.
As I have made it clear in my afterword to David's groundbreaking book, Wong sifu was one of the most gentle, humble, affable, and philosophical human beings I have been fortunate to meet (how's that for a paradox?). At the same time, he held nothing back and was willing to test everything and anything, and kept pointing his students in the same direction.
As his first foreign student in 1964 (even though I had been first exposed to Wing Chun in 1958 via Bruce Lee, my brother Frank, and some of his scholmates) I too was curious about the efficacy of different martial arts and spent many hours discussing the effectiveness of karate, tong long, choy lay fut, western boxing, and grappling with sifu. As I was reasonably proficient in judo - I was captain of the Leicester University judo team, had fought successfully in
the Leicestershire league and the All England AJA (Amateur Judo Association) championships - I tried several times to see if I could apply it against sifu. He was simply too fast for me, with his rapid fire punches and excellent footwork. I simply could not get a hold on him. Even on the one occasion when, by agreement, he allowed me to get under and lift him off the ground, he demonstrated how he could cause damage even in the midst of a throw (decades later, another sifu demonstrated this ability in a US seminar). Since then, I have witnessed for myself (and also taken on faith the accounts of friends who have had successes against grapplers, dating back to the late 60's /early 70's!) how good Wing Chun, using the appropriate footwork (including that found in the BJD form), works against grapplers.....
......so how come nobody has shown that skill in the MMA tournaments. starting with the first UFC? It's a controversial matter, but from my perspective I believe that no Wing Chun competitor has ever entered, with the required levels of technical skill PLUS psychological mindset or fighting spirit PLUS the necessary training and conditioning to deal with not only grapplers but the whole different ballgame of ring fighting which requires "professional" levels of dedication and commitment.
In fact, after the very early attempts of Gus Levicki (who lasted the longest of any competitor in any UFC bout to that date)and Scott Baker who struggled for about 5 minutes or so before he gave in, there have been hardly any WC participants (less than 5) even bothering to enter. I have seen a short video clip of one competitor who showed not a scintilla of WC training and simply rushed forward into the arms of his very fast grappling opponent.
Incidentally, if any of you have read, on another forum, Scott Baker's frank account of his bout, it is clear that he was no slouch and had quite a successful full contact career before his UFC bout....but, of his own admission, he was psychologically not where he should have been, as he still does not understand to this day why he did not use his WC skills to end the fight when he had the opportunity to do so, electing instead to grapple with his opponent.
Until, WC practitioners train in the ways outlined above, they will not do well in such tournaments. But maybe such a strategy is being initiated. I am thinking particularly of the efforts of the Wing Tsun organisation, including former members, for example, Emin Boztepe, who have introduced anti grappling training.
If anyone is wondering what the point of this message is.....it's a twofold one......firstly, WSL's combat record has been authenticated by numerous sources, including media eyewitness reports, with reference to encounters with experienced and usually older opponents from countless martial arts and styles (not teenage punks on rooftops, as some naive and ill informed people have claimed on a few mailing lists)......secondly, there is no infallible martial art - even though some are demonstrably more effective and efficient than others - and thirdly, the only way WC competitors can do well in MMA tournaments is by undergoing the necessary rigorous and dedicated training....for better or worse, the majority of WC practitioners do not train for that purpose, but to end a street confrontation in seconds, if it should ever come to that......nevertheless, that does not stop many from conjecturing and theorising and living off the reputation of WC, without putting in the realistic training necessary
Regards.
Rolf
R Clausnitzer
Junior Member
Registered: Nov 2002
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 15
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by yuanfen
True. Wong Sifu also never got the benefit of internet advice
on grappling, kicking and other things.
And, did he "perform" for prospective studentsbe fore they decided to be his student?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi, Joy
Trust this finds you in good health and spirits.
Nevertheless, I am disappointed with the questioning tone of your post , as it it seems to come from either a significant lack of knowledge about WSL's history and/or doubt about the accuracy of this history.
As you and other readers may have noticed, I am a stickler for accuracy and when I do post, which is infrequently, it's more often than not to set the record straight.
As someone who was there not long after the beginnings of modern Wing Chun in Hong Kong and has been exposed to Wing Chun longer than probably anyone on this or any other forum (in Australia, for example, I can think only of Zopa Gyatso who has been around for a similar period), I speak with some measure of authority.
As I have made it clear in my afterword to David's groundbreaking book, Wong sifu was one of the most gentle, humble, affable, and philosophical human beings I have been fortunate to meet (how's that for a paradox?). At the same time, he held nothing back and was willing to test everything and anything, and kept pointing his students in the same direction.
As his first foreign student in 1964 (even though I had been first exposed to Wing Chun in 1958 via Bruce Lee, my brother Frank, and some of his scholmates) I too was curious about the efficacy of different martial arts and spent many hours discussing the effectiveness of karate, tong long, choy lay fut, western boxing, and grappling with sifu. As I was reasonably proficient in judo - I was captain of the Leicester University judo team, had fought successfully in
the Leicestershire league and the All England AJA (Amateur Judo Association) championships - I tried several times to see if I could apply it against sifu. He was simply too fast for me, with his rapid fire punches and excellent footwork. I simply could not get a hold on him. Even on the one occasion when, by agreement, he allowed me to get under and lift him off the ground, he demonstrated how he could cause damage even in the midst of a throw (decades later, another sifu demonstrated this ability in a US seminar). Since then, I have witnessed for myself (and also taken on faith the accounts of friends who have had successes against grapplers, dating back to the late 60's /early 70's!) how good Wing Chun, using the appropriate footwork (including that found in the BJD form), works against grapplers.....
......so how come nobody has shown that skill in the MMA tournaments. starting with the first UFC? It's a controversial matter, but from my perspective I believe that no Wing Chun competitor has ever entered, with the required levels of technical skill PLUS psychological mindset or fighting spirit PLUS the necessary training and conditioning to deal with not only grapplers but the whole different ballgame of ring fighting which requires "professional" levels of dedication and commitment.
In fact, after the very early attempts of Gus Levicki (who lasted the longest of any competitor in any UFC bout to that date)and Scott Baker who struggled for about 5 minutes or so before he gave in, there have been hardly any WC participants (less than 5) even bothering to enter. I have seen a short video clip of one competitor who showed not a scintilla of WC training and simply rushed forward into the arms of his very fast grappling opponent.
Incidentally, if any of you have read, on another forum, Scott Baker's frank account of his bout, it is clear that he was no slouch and had quite a successful full contact career before his UFC bout....but, of his own admission, he was psychologically not where he should have been, as he still does not understand to this day why he did not use his WC skills to end the fight when he had the opportunity to do so, electing instead to grapple with his opponent.
Until, WC practitioners train in the ways outlined above, they will not do well in such tournaments. But maybe such a strategy is being initiated. I am thinking particularly of the efforts of the Wing Tsun organisation, including former members, for example, Emin Boztepe, who have introduced anti grappling training.
If anyone is wondering what the point of this message is.....it's a twofold one......firstly, WSL's combat record has been authenticated by numerous sources, including media eyewitness reports, with reference to encounters with experienced and usually older opponents from countless martial arts and styles (not teenage punks on rooftops, as some naive and ill informed people have claimed on a few mailing lists)......secondly, there is no infallible martial art - even though some are demonstrably more effective and efficient than others - and thirdly, the only way WC competitors can do well in MMA tournaments is by undergoing the necessary rigorous and dedicated training....for better or worse, the majority of WC practitioners do not train for that purpose, but to end a street confrontation in seconds, if it should ever come to that......nevertheless, that does not stop many from conjecturing and theorising and living off the reputation of WC, without putting in the realistic training necessary
Regards.
Rolf