Moin Boardies,
Mal 'n paar allgemeine Fragen, weil in nem anderen Thread gerade irgendwas über Dumog vs. BJJ gepostet wurde.
Wie genau schaut eigentlich Dumog aus?
Was zeichnet dieses System aus?
Es wird ja immer gesagt das der Bodenkampf/Ringkampf fester Bestandteil der FMA ist.
Wer von euch trainiert sowas regelmässig, oder wird das in den meisten Vereinen nur noch im Rahmen von gelegentlichen Seminaren unterrichtet?
Gibt es Ähnlichkeiten zu anderen Grapplingstilen? (Judo/Ringen/JJ...)
Welche Prinzipien/Strategien finden im Phil.Ringkampf Anwendung?
Gibt es spezielle Techiken die nur im FMA Ringkampf/Bodenkampf Verwendung finden und ihn so von anderen Grapplingstilen abheben?
Schreibt doch mal, was eurer Erfahrung nach charakteristisch für dieses System ist.
Gibt es überhaupt DAS Dumog, oder gibt's da auch zig sub Stile wie im AEK?
Grüsse
es gibt nen dumog tape von inosanto in seiner definitive inosanto reihe, da kannst du auch nen trailer zu anscauen auf seiner page,
ist halt grappling mit stick, viel im stand, auch im boden,
aber alles in allem viel spielerei finde ich
definitiv anders als dbma stickgrappling
www.inosanto.com und dann auf die reihen und abdafür,
check gleich mal www.sayoc.com und auf stickgrappling
Eskrima-Düsseldorf
26-08-2005, 17:10
Soweit ich weiß, bedeutet Dumog nur "Grappling/Ringen" und bezeichnet keinen speziellen Stil.
Aber Namen sind nur Schall und Rauch.
So muß zum Training
Christian
Soweit ich weiß, bedeutet Dumog nur "Grappling/Ringen" und bezeichnet keinen speziellen Stil.
Aber Namen sind nur Schall und Rauch.
So muß zum Training
Christian
Es geht mir auch nicht um den Namen "Dumog", sondern darum, ob sich in der Phil. Kampfkunst Kultur sowas wie ein eigenständiges Boden- und Ringkampfsystem entwickelt hat.
Wenn ja, würd ich halt gern 'n paar Fragen dazu beantwortet haben, da ich einfach zu faul bin das www stundenlang danach zu durchforsten und meinen Trainer erst in zwei Wochen sehe. :p ;)
Die Frage kommt auch immer wieder, oder? ;)
Hab mir die selbst mal gestellt und deshalb ausgiebig Internet/Literatur/Videos.. zu dem Thema durchgeschaut.
Im Grunde läuft es mMn. darauf hinaus, daß die meisten Stile entweder a) Dumog=Bodenkampf ins System genommen haben, als es in Amerika grade 'in' war (dank Gracies) oder b) was ganz anderes darunter verstehen.
zu a) Der einzige 'alte' Meister, von dem ich Aussagen zu Dumog als echt phil. Bodenkampf gefunden hab war Leo T. Gaje. Ansonsten findet sich meist, zB bei vielen Doce Pares Schulen, daß der Bodenkampf nachträglich aufgenommen wurde..
zu b) Dann gibts noch die Auslegung, daß Unter Dumog Hebel/Würfe/Druck-Zug und sowas zu verstehen ist, es aber im Grunde aufhört wenn der Gegner am Boden ist bzw. vielleicht noch eine Festlegetechnik angesetzt wird. Bei denen geht es dann nicht darum, 10 min im Guard zu liegen.
--> Ich denke, dieser Mangel an 'echtem' Bodenkampf ist genauso leicht zu erklären wie der Mangel an hohen Tritten. Du kannst lange am Boden rollen, wenn du im Ring liegst.
Du rollst nur ein paar Sekunden und bist dann tot, wenn der andere ein Messer in der Hand hat.
Falls jemand noch Gegenbeispiele hat, bin ich sehr interessiert.. aber mMn gibt es sowas wie BJJ, also echten BODENkampf, auf den Phil. noch nicht viel länger als max. 60 Jahre - bzw. nur sehr selten davor.
Kann man davon ausgehen, dass (traditionelles?)Dumog sozusagen ein Mischstil ist, aus JiuJitsu/Taijutsu von Japanischen Meistern die mit phil. Eskrimadores trainiert haben und aus europäischem Ringen, auf das die Filipinos durch die Fechtschule der Kolonialmächte gestossen sind?
Alles natürlich mit Berücksichtigung des "absorb what is usefull, reject what is useless Prinzips", und der Tatsache, dass dieses Programm noch um Stick-und knivegrappling Elemente erweitert wurde.
Mal Repost von Artikeln über Dumog von Leo T. Gaje / Pekiti Tirsia:
FILIPINO GROUND COMBAT FIGHTING
DUMOG
An Indigenous Art - A Versatile Art
Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr.
Originally published by:
Majaphajit Martial Arts Association, International
In cooperation with the Pekiti-Tirsia Philippines, Inc
History
The Filipino Dumog is a very rare art today. Dumog can be found mostly in the Southern part of Negros Island and in the island of Panay in the province of Antique. This can be found in small barrios mostly farmers where Dumog became a past time, an entertainment and a form of survival.
According to one farmer I came to have personal discussion with, Dumog was a normal practice used by the farmers to catch the Carabao by the horn to control and wrestle down. To control the Carabao, the rope is entangled around the neck or at the nose rope holder made of rattan hooked to the Carabao's nose. The rope is used to pull the Carabao to brought to a place where a farmer makes them rest.
The act of controlling the Carabao catching the horn and wrestling down to the ground is called Dumog. A Dumog expert has a well-built body with sturdy legs and broad shoulders. His legs are spread far apart when he walks and normally he doesn't wear shoes. To build the legs for strength and resistance, the mud pit (a knee high) is the training area. A farmer dip both feet into the sticky mud and take a high stride moving in circular motion until the mud is softened. It could take hours but that builds the legs as strong as the legs of the Carabao after several months or years of training.
This is done as an exercise. For the Arms and Shoulder, the farmers cut a strong branch of a tree and tried to bend it until the branch either breaks or bends. For Power Push, the farmer will position himself in front of the big tree, sometimes a coconut tree and use the legs to balance and both hands push the tree. The farmer moved around the coconut tree and execute a vigorous push and repeatedly doing until the farmer felt tired then he stopped.
For the Hand Grip, the farmer takes a rope and ties the other end against the tree and while holding the end of the rope, the farmer turns around in full force.
The Head Butts, the banana tree is used as the object, but the head butting is started by running towards the direction of the banana tree, the head hits the banana tree with vigorous force that sometimes the banana tree falls down and that ends the training for the day.
The Dumog has a lot of foot work, namely the squaring/parallel footwork (the Baka) the Footwork (Panikang) the feet twisting (Palubid) strong footage (Pamigas) footclipping (Pangipit), forward push (Pasudsud), foot deflection (Palapas) Lampasu, (foot drag), foot smashing (Panglinas), footbar (Pangligwat), ability to balance and deliver vigorous throw (Haboy). Dumog has sophisticated hand work called Pangamut which will be explained under the technical fighting structure.
During the celebration of the Saints, to include the Thanksgiving ceremony for the first harvest of the rice field, corn fields, several entertainment are prepared for the big show. Like Carabao race, Horse fight, Dog fight, Cock fight (Bulang), Spider fight, Sipa (kicking contest with chicken feather wrap with cloth and a peso coin inside). The Sipa takraw (a volleyball by using the feet). The Kali fight using the hardwood (Lampusanay), leg wrestling (pi-ol) then the Dumog.
Winners are given awards, a dozen chicken eggs, a fighting cock, a sack of rice, a sack of corn, one gallon of coconut wine (Tuba), bunch of bananas, 2 dozens of coconut fruits and many others. These entertainment sports were considered cultural in nature but what count most is at the coronation of the Queen in the evening, there are contest for the native dances like the Tinikling (bamboo dance) the Maglalatik (coconut shell dance), Pandango sa ilaw (candle dance), the Itik-itik (a bird dance.)
Dumog is considered as a natural sport and a natural ground combat fighting art. In most cases, if there are feuds between family against family, the first to be called to be the middle man to pacify the trouble is the Dumoguero because the presence of the Dumoguero scares everybody. Some will always say, "Don't kid around, the Dumoguero, he will plaster you to the wall or the Dumoguero will plant your head into the ground". The presence of the Dumoguero during fistfight or a drunkard turns wild, the situation will be settled immediately.
There was a story about a stranger who became the guest of a family in a barrio. This man happens to be a thief. But in the barrio people are always very accommodating and very hospitable. Of course the stranger was easily accepted and he was able to win the sympathy of the barrio people. Then one evening, someone had shouted that he lost all of his money he kept under the pillow. Money from the sale of rice that day. Then immediately without delay, the headman of the Barangay hit the empty can and everybody gathered asking what happened and they were told that the stranger had something to do with the lost money.
They looked for the stranger but they couldn't find him within the vicinity. Then suddenly a small boy came running shouting that he saw a man running toward the town probably to take a ride with a passenger bus or to go somewhere. Without delay, the Dumoguero ran towards the town and when he reached the town, he went to the passenger bus and he found the stranger hiding at the back of the bus. He immediately caught the stranger by the collar of his shirt and brought him outside the bus.
He dragged him to the ground in front of many people. First he held him by the head and he applied pressure to the neck area so he can confess to tell the truth. Then his pockets were searched and there they found the stolen money.
After they took the money, the stranger was held by the left arm and without delay his left arm was twisted. Then the Dumoguero close in beside the stranger. He suddenly made a body twist wrecking the arm, then he grab the stranger and went down inserting his right shoulder between his legs and brought the stranger to the ground breaking his spinal and smashing his head to the ground until the face, the head were completely unrecognizable. The Dumogueros are fierce people. Fear has no place in their daily life. They are conditioned to fight against all odds.
Dumog Conditioning Techniques
Foot Padding (Kahig)
The right foot/left foot is moved in circular motion slightly touching the ground clockwise and counter clockwise until balance is gained with one foot standing, repetition in several hours.
Foot Drop (Posdak sang Tiil)
The foot left/right is drop to the ground, to temper the foot and to condition the motion that during the collision, the feet must be planted deeply not to moved by the opponent.
Hip Balance (Paninghawak)
Hip balance is done by squatting position with both hands placed on both hips. The movement is to be in circular motion.
Sturdy legs (Katin-katin)
Down motion in slow motion from the squatting position and bringing the body in slow motion a repetition of 12 counts.
Frog Jump (Liktin)
Both feet are brought together and with a lifting motion then drop both feet in squatting position.
It is always the principle in Dumog that in the event of encounter if it is a combat challenge the enemy must be completely paralyzed or incapacitated. There is a complete determination to win when challenged is called for by another Dumoguero. It follows into the cultural practices of the early forefather based on the Philosophy of Kali, "One must believe in life not death, One must believe in success not failure, One must believe in good health not sickness".
In the last 15 years of my in and out visitation to Indonesia and the Philippines, even when I was still in the United States and from 1989 up to the present time now that I stayed most of my time in the Philippines and traveling to Asian countries, my activities were divided 50% research about the Malay related art of Pentjak Silat, Bersilat, Kuntao, Pangamot and the Dumog.
Since the Philippines was one of the major archipelagos of the Indonisus Continent that once belong to the Sri-Vijaya Empire and the Majapahit Empire, the presence of the technical elements related to the fighting arts were noticeable. For instance in Indonesia, one of the Silat styles is called Menang Kabaw. It is a half-way low fighting silat and ground fighting silat with the purpose of rushing towards the enemy by using the head and the whole body to smash the opponent pushing into the solid wall or foot of a tree until he collapse and falls to the ground.
The Dumog techniques are similar to Menang kabaw. As a matter of fact, the word Kabaw is an Ilonggo term, meaning Carabao or in short Kabaw. There are interrelated techniques in each art that speaks the continuity of the art with relationship to the Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand and Madagascar. There is much deeper history in the next issue.
Pangamut (Hands/Interlocking/Counterlocking)
Hubad-hubad Pasugat - Counter Release, Release and Recounter
Uyat sa Li-og (Neckhold)
Neckhold can be done either by left had or right hand. This motion is executed when there is an opening by the opponent during the positioning either as a bait or actual opening entry.
Uyat sa Abaga (Shoulder hold)
Shoulder hold from neck hold, the hand slides to the shoulder area in preparation to insert the hand over the back and down to the armpit.
Dungan/Kapot sa Li-og (Hold together)
Both hands are placed over the neck area and both hands are brought to one shoulder for controlling the balance.
Singa Sag-ang (Snapping the chin)
Either the right hand or left hand holds the chin in rapid motion applied as a snapping motion in order to out-balance the opponent.
Tulod sa Dug-han (Pushing the chest)
Both hands slide down to the chest from the neck or shoulder area, then with sudden motion apply the rugged push to the chest with continuous dragging motion until the opponent is brought to the corner or section so that he cannot move.
Uyat sa Butkon (Hold the forearm)
To hold the forearm with right or left hand in preparation for arm leverage throw.
Uyat sa Bati-is (Grabbing the lower leg)
This is applied in case the opponent is off-time, the timing must be precise during the time of execution. This is the most difficult part during the Dumog.
Dumog as a Sport
Dumoguero positioned their heads placed on each left shoulder. Both players put their two hands at the back. The players during contact can immediately used the technique to outbalance each other.
Action takes place when one of the Dumogueros moved his arms by touching the opponent's neck, shoulder, arms and body. Then immediately the planned strategy is applied without hesitation. Then the action takes couple of minutes sometimes little longer, depends on the skill of the Dumoguero. What happens in between the time when both Dumogueros are preparing for action? There is a interacting exchanges of (Yawit) Anting-anting. The one with powerful (Yawit) anting-anting demoralizes the opponent with lesser power and the action starts.
It is a must in a Dumoguero that physical strength must be developed at the same time, the power of the Mind and all components will be developed to re-enforce the physical deficiencies.
Counter Combative Art
The use of the Pangamut, the art of deadly empty hands.
The tempering process
The hands are tempered by slapping the banana trees and for hardening the hands are smashed by slapping into the bark of a tree. This bark of a tree is freshly cut with the juice still fresh became the useful medicinal liquid that will help to harden the hand. Selection of this tree is only known to the Dumoguero.
The hacking process
The forearm is hardened by tempering against the banana tree and accelerated to the branch of a tree. This branch is from a tree that is considered as one of the families of the medicinal tree. During the hardening, while the forearm is smashed against the branch, the juice of the bark is medicinal that helps to harden the forearm.
The Elbow hardening
This is a special training which is done only on the beach. Immediately after the low tide, the Dumoguero goes into the shoreline and find a suitable place for him to practice. The sandy portion after the high tide is ideal for elbow training. The elbow is brought high above the head and with vigorous force, the elbow together with the body is trapped into the sandy portion and is being repeated by using the left and right elbow. During the dropping of the elbow to the sand it creates several bruises that causes pains caused by the salt water that enters into the cuts. This feeling of pain conditions the Dumoguero to take the pain and while doing so the mentality of the Dumoguero is to take the pain at the same time encourage him to hit more the sand believing that the pain will go away. After the vigorous training and the elbow is already bleeding, then a medicinal oil is applied to the cuts.
Hardening of the Hand Blade
The hand is thrust into the soft sand while the sea water is flowing into the area where the Hand Blade is thrust. The purpose is to penetrate the sand by using the thrust to go deeper and deeper. This is done in the middle of the day where the Sun is drying the sand to be very hot. The thrusting of the hand is continuous until the feeling of numbness is attained. At this point both hands are dipped into the medicinal herbal pot for several hours. After the numbness is removed then the hands are wrapped with thick clothes for keeping the flesh and the nerves safe against water or air that may cause bad effect into the hand blade.
Deadly Art of Dirty Tricks
Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje, Jr.
Originally published by:
Majaphajit Martial Arts Association, International
In cooperation with the Pekiti-Tirsia Philippines, Inc
Moving forward into the in-depth of Dumog/Pangamut the Deadly Art of Dirty Tricks in cheating the enemy during the encounter is the specialty of the Dumoguero. Here are the practices of the Dumogueros and their Dirty Tricks.
The training methods of the Pangamut (hand combat) concentrates on the toughening of the fingernails and the palm. At the initial stage, the Dumoguero prepares a ganta of (Katumbal) red-hot pepper, all ripened and are placed in a bucket. Both open hands are dip inside the bucket were the hot pepper are to be squeezed until all the juices are separated. Then both hands are transferred into another bucket filled with sand.
Once the hands are dip into the sand, the arm must sink up to the elbow level. The process of dipping is to thrust the hand into the bucket hitting the fined sand so vigorously that for continuos thrust the hands are toughened and toughened. After few minutes, the same hands are dipped into the bucket filled with pepper juices until the hands are numbed not to feel any pain. The pepper juice sinks into the tip of the fingernails and to the skin of the forearms. This is done every other day up to 49 days. The philosophy of this training is for the hand to have protection against poison.
The poisons are taken from the venom of a walo-walo water snake, Poison from Atipalo, poison from Ewi-ewi, poison from Lagot-not (a poisonous tree). The Dumuguero boils the coconut oil, and once the coconut oil is cooked it is transferred into a small bucket to be mixed with the poison. This is mixed while the oil is still hot. After few minutes the hands are dip into the bucket of oil and poison. Then the Dumoguero remove his hands from the bucket and air dry his hands ready to be used for combat.
During the fight the Dumoguero concentrates his attacks by thrusting his fingers into the mouth or eyes of the opponent. Once the fingers touches the mouth or the eyes, then there will be a change of the opponent movements, that means that the poison is working. Then after couple of minutes the enemy will feel dizzy complainin for headaches. From then the opponent cannot continue the fight and he is being brought to a place where he can rest. Then after few hours, or few days, there is news that the man dies caused by heart attack or some illness caused by some spirits.
The other method is to apply the poison by inserting the Atipalo’s teeth in between the fingers. Once contact is made, the Dumoguero use the teeth of the Atipalo to scratch the opponent’s hand or skin and immediately the opponent will have a tremendous pain and feverish causing paralysis of the spinal column more than enough for a victim to die either instantly or couple of hours.
The Dumoguero is a very tricky and dirty fighter. A open hand slap of the Dumoguero into any parts of the body will cause sudden chill and dizziness that causes serious vomiting and diarrhea if no herbal medicine that will be applied from a special medicinal tree, the victim will die. The hands of the Dumogueros are filled with poison.
Dumoguero also performs a certain traditional ritual to re-enforce his power and strength. Doing the advanced rituals, the spiritual power of the Dumoguero is effective against an enemy during combat. The Dumoguero can weakened the opponent by reducing the strength of the enemy causing him not to stand or walk.
The use of the poison hand is not limited only for Dumog encounter but also being practiced in cases of personal challenges. If someone became a victim of the poison hand he suddenly dies, of an unknown cause but most of the time it is blamed to heart attacks.
The Dumog/Pangamut movements are done in simulation as movement of the snake about to catch the prey. The wavy motion is also a reflection of the wave of the sea. The hands are moved in parallel movements, vertical movements and reverse vertical motions crossing and counter crossing the body. Any grabbing to the body by one hand or two hands immediately it is countered by one hand while the other hand is thrusting the eyes and the mouth of the opponent. A smart Dumoguero is always prepared to counter against thrust to the eyes or to the mouth. To combine the Dumog techniques and the Pangamut using all the dirty tricks, fighting the Dumoguero will always bring death. That is why the presence of the Dumoguero during family trouble or community fight will reduce the possibility of a serious confrontation.
Dumog Terminology
Kamrus – to scratch the face, the skin
Gusnit – to pail off the skin, remove the hair
Puwakon – clawing the throat, removing the esophagus
Pungkoy – Vigorous blow to the back of the head
Hulbot – the pull the head or pull the hair
Waslik – to pull and throw
Kumus – to smash the face area
Lukit – to thrust the finger into the eye socket and take the eyes out
Kagat – to bite the skin fingers, nose and ears
Guba – to elbow the chest area and break the sternum
Itlogan – to grab and squeeze the balls (groin)
Pungol – to hold the head, break the neck remove from the body
PEKITI-TIRSIA AND THE EVOLUTION OF DUMOG
Not much has been written and less has been told about the Filipino Dumog otherwise known as the Dumog/Pangamut or Dumpag. As a matter of fact this came only to the knowledge of few people who are FMA oriented instructors as a story that came from someone who happens to show about dumog , of course ask about his background, he was or he is a blackbelt in Judo or played wrestling or grappling with few friends or normal Dojo. Dumog/pangamut was not formulated in a very authentic image as one of the official filipino indigenous fighting art but rather an add on glamour in the teachings of FMA. To refresh the minds of those who read about the backgrounds of most instructors in FMA, it showed the mixing of Escrima with Aikido, Judo, wrestling and grappling in their teachings curriculum but lately they came out with the Dumog as if they are in authority of Dumog making people believe that they know Dumog. When in fact they don't know what is Dumog. The preception of Dumog by most many is similar to grappling or wrestling or throwing with a hip throw or catching the arm and do shoulder throw.
The system taught under the true indigenous Filipino art is based on close quarter oriented structure, then it is easy for one to find the substance of the Dumog during the clinching process but not so visible. It can be only be apparent when the hand is dangling and about to be separated that an entry is secured while the blade is fast approaching with an intense velocity, approaching the speeding blade with the intention to use a hip throw or to disarm is a fantasy.
Since Pekiti-Tirsia system is a close quarter in-fighting oriented art, the structure for close in entry is found within the footwork strategy, then it is inherent in the system to enter into the close quarter perimeter since the reflexes to move is a major training concept with applied accuracy.
In a true indigenous FMA system the footwork strategy is already the Dumog/pangamut foundation. In my research work for the past 13 years in the Philippines and around Indonesia and Malaysia for the true Malay art, the Filipino Dumog/Pangamut is within the family tree of the fighting system of the great Sri Vijaya Empire and the Majaphajit Empire, the contemporaries of the Ming Dynasty of China and the Shogunate Empire of Japan.
What is the true philosophy of Dumog/pangamut." TO FIND A PLACE WHERE TO STAND AND TO MOVE THE EARTH" the fighting principle is very rare comparing to grappling, wrestling, judo or other arts since the mother principle is edged weapon and an edged weapon could be not big in the hands but enough to be hidden or the fingernails sharpen to the teeth with an insert of a deadly poison inside the fingernails or the smallest stingray poison tail that can paralyze a person for life upon slight wounding of the flesh or a flick of scorpion poison or a deadly venom unknown to hunters. In Dumog/Pangamut it is a very tricky practices that nobody will just easily expose its secret. The Dumogueros in Panay and in Negros will not even tell you that they know Dumog. The will just tell that they can fight like a kaliman. It is the unarmed division of the FMA but hidden because of more secrets into the fighting technology. In my years of personal involvement among the unsung dumogueros, I gained to respect the art much as I respect the kali warrior.
Dumog/pangamut is technically deceiving and unpredictable and cannot be seen because by a touch of your hand or body it will immediately register as deadly as a spitting cobra.
So with this principle, our working mechanics in using the Dumog/pangamut, we apply the principle of UNTOUCHABILITY-The Untouchables. Our system of take down is swift in full breaking of muscle and tendons for dislocation without necessary touching the hands or body ( MTD). Our hold comes to the point that the person will completely incapable of using the hands for counterability. It is a system complete as the weapons in the hands. In modern lingo. No other hands can make the world go round, only the hands that cradle to the grave.
GT. Gaje
ps3ud0nym
28-08-2005, 14:03
Sorry aber das kann ich mir nicht verkneifen...
[...]
The Head Butts, the banana tree is used as the object, but the head butting is started by running towards the direction of the banana tree, the head hits the banana tree with vigorous force that sometimes the banana tree falls down and that ends the training for the day.
[...]
:hammer: Wie behindert das Training aussehen muss!
Ansonsten vielen Dank Twist, sehr interessante Texte.
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