Messerkampf - cool

[graf zahl]

wie z.B. in diesem Fall:
http://www.nydailynews.com/04-19-2003/news/story/76758p-70882c.html

[sportler]

Da fallen mir doch gleich zwei Anmerkungen ein.

1. Es zahlt sich in solchen Fällen immer aus, wenn man der Sohn oder die Tochter des örtlichen Triaden Führers ist. Dann muß man sich nicht mit den Problemen des Pöbels belasten :D

2. Ich frage mich, ob einige "Streetfighting Experten" hier in Deutschland immer noch so marktschreierisch Werbung für ihr kompromisloses, dem totalen Kampf verpflichtetes, Killerinstinkt geleitetes, messerbasiertes, usw. ... Kampfsystem machen würden, wenn sie damit rechnen müßten, daß die Polizei im Fall der Fälle vor der Tür steht, um mal ganz unverbindlich nachzuprüfen, ob den Lehrer nicht eine Mitschuld trifft, weil er es vor lauter "Heißmachen" und realistischem Training versäumt hat, seinen Schülern auch etwas über angepaßtes Verhalten, gesunden Menschenverstand, Verhältnismäßigkeit, usw. beizubringen.

cu
sportler

[Krider]

kompromisloses, dem totalen Kampf verpflichtetes, Killerinstinkt geleitetes, messerbasiertes, usw. ... Kampfsystem
Wo gibts das denn?

[sportler]

Original geschrieben von KRIDER
Wo gibts das denn? Ich meine kein bestimmtes System. Das ist nur eine Zusammenfassung von Schlagworten, die ich in dem Zusammenhang schon von Leuten gehört oder gelesen habe. Ich hoffe, damit deutlich zu machen, welche Art Lehrer ich meine.

cu
sportler

[Krider]

Die Art Propaganda kommt mir bekannt vor, ob der Kram und die Lehrer allerdings was taugen steht auf einem anderen Blatt, da hast du Recht.

[Ulrich]

wie die PR jetzt auf die Leute zurückschlägt kann man ja die letzten Tage im Escrima Digest lesen: vermehrte Aufmerksamkeit durch die Presse - die mal ebend einen neuen Sündenbock ausgemacht hat in NY zumindestens

ich bin mal so frei zu zitieren

Message: 1
From: "Stephen Lamade" <lhommedieu@hotmail.com>
To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2003 04:10:14 +0000
Subject: [Eskrima] Stabbing in NYC
Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net

Don,

I was also contacted (by the New York Post), but was out of town. At first
they said they were doing a feature article on Filipino martial arts. When
my wife pressed them, they admitted that the basis of their inquiries was
the stabbing incident. All in all, I'm glad I wasn't home to field the call.
One New York martial arts teacher was quoted in one of the dailies. After
hearing what he had to say, I thought about what my response would be if I
had the time to think about it. This has already been posted in a couple of
the forums, but I'll offer it here as well:

"After reading accounts in all three NYC major newspapers, I’ve concluded
that the individual in question is a fairly typical Filipino martial arts
student. He sounds like the kind of guy that most of us would like to have
a beer with after class. He’s attended some college, has worked as a
computer programmer, and likes playing paintball gun games. His parents
state that he has never been in any trouble, and that he’s “respectful of
his elders.” We’ve all trained with this kind of guy. While I am not 100%
sure, I also think that I know the instructor in question. He’s also a
decent guy. The way that he markets his school, trains his students, and
practices his art is very typical of what most of us do today. As everyone
is aware, it’s the “realistic” nature of a weapons-based martial art that
appeals to most people seeking a method of self-defense, and Filipino
martial arts instructors generally promote this aspect of their art to some
extent or another out of a sense of pride – and also to gain students. With
respect to the question of whether martial arts teachers bear responsibility
for the actions of these students, I offer the following:

We practice what the media has called a “lethal,” “deadly,” and “vicious”
martial art. I recently attended an all-day seminar on the use of a knife
on an unarmed opponent. The training was “a lot of fun,” and the illusion
that I could ever be in such complete control of my environment when faced
with an imminent danger to my person or my family was certainly gratifying
to my ego. In the back of my mind, however, I kept asking the kinds of
questions that I am sure are familiar to most martial artists that employ
weapons in their training. One was: What would the circumstances have to
be for me to attack an unarmed person with a knife? Answer: If I was
certain that unless I used deadly force, my life or the lives of my loved
ones were in immediate jeopardy. Obviously, this awareness could only take
place in an extreme situation, wherein no other choice was possible. This
has to be part of the mind-set of the art that we train, as well as the
understanding that no one is exempt from making a tragic decision when
placed under extreme stress. Unfortunately, many martial artists train for
that inevitable day in the future where their skills will be put to the
test, instead of learning how to temper their judgment every day. We cannot
pretend that, as teachers, we do not bear some responsibility for imparting
the moral and legal consequences for learning martial arts skills,
particularly if we practice the martial arts that use weapons. At issue
here is the juxtaposition between the way in which we often promote the
dynamic and violent nature of Filipino martial arts, on the one hand, and
having 20/20 hindsight when one of our students acts out his fantasies in a
situation for which he was obviously, and completely, emotionally
unprepared, on the other.

On the other hand, there are obvious limits to what we can achieve as
martial arts teachers. No one can teach another person to behave responsibly
in every situation, no matter how much we may desire it. Perhaps the best
we can do is follow the example of the schools that teach the use of the gun
in self-defense (for example, LFI), and spend some more time examining the
consequences of the use of lethal force with our students.

What persuaded this guy to pull out a knife in the middle of a fight between
a 250-pound bouncer and a couple of his friends? Did he think that his or
someone else’s life was at stake? Or did he merely allow the darker angels
of his nature to end one life and irrevocably change his own forever? If
the student was drinking (and here I am making an assumption) are the
consequences of combining impaired judgment with this kind of knowledge so
different than getting in a car while intoxicated and mowing someone down
while driving home from a party? Is it different from accidentally shooting
a friend on a hunting trip after ignoring common rules of gun safety? I’m
certainly aware that this is an imperfect analogy but I think that there is
enough truth shared between both situations to merit a comparison with the
actions of this individual. You’re supposed to know not to drink and drive;
you’re supposed to know not fool around with firearms; and you’re supposed
to know the limits of the use of deadly force. I’m going to go out on a
limb here and suggest that this individual had no idea of the consequences
of his actions up until the time that he learned that the other guy had
died. Now, unfortunately, he is an expert in “reality-based” self-defense.
I think he has a lot to teach us."

Best,

Steve Lamade
San Miguel Eskrima Association

[R.E.]

Hi Sportler,

da Du "Streetfightingexperten" in Deutschland ansprichst und dabei auch auf Messer, Killerinstinct etc. ansprichst, frage ich mich, ob ich mich angesprochen fühlen sollte oder zumindest mein Kampfsystem.

Beim PFS gehts nämlich genau um diese Dinge, allerdings wird an meiner Schule das Kampfvermeiden, Weggehen aus der Situation als oberestes Mittel unterrichtet von mir unterrichtet, genau die gleiche Haltung schreibe ich auch in meinen Postings nieder, also Street Smart--möglichst jeden Kampf vermeiden!

Das man das was man in einem "Streetfight" einsetzen müßte um möglichst heil aus der Situation zu kommen, mit dem Deutschen Recht in Diskrepanz stehen könnte, ist hoffentlich jedem klar.

Die SV Sache sieht nämlich folgendermaßen aus, Du mußt mind. die gleiche oder sogar mehr Energie aufbringen als der Aggressor um dessen Attacke(n) abwehren zu können.

Also wenn Du jemand angreifst, würde ich das schon auch mit Namen machen, da dieses dann ein Gesicht besitzt.

NGR

Ralf

[sportler]

Original geschrieben von PFS-Ralf
...Also wenn Du jemand angreifst, würde ich das schon auch mit Namen machen, da dieses dann ein Gesicht besitzt.Ich habe niemanden angegriffen, sondern nur eine Frage in den Raum gestellt. Wenn dir persönlich dieses Thema unangenehm ist, so ist das dein Problem. Ist aber lustig, daß gerade du so darauf reagierst. In diesem Thread

http://www.kampfkunst-board.de/kampfkunst/forum/showthread.php?threadid=3245&perpage=20&pagenumber=3

entstand mal kurzzeitig der Eindruck, daß ein Lehrer in Deutschland für das Verhalten seiner Schüler haftbar gemacht werden kann. Jetzt raten wir alle mal, wer daraufhin ganz besorgt mehrmals nachgefragt hat, ob das wirklich so ist.

cu
sportler

[R.E.]

Hi Sportler,

hmm auf jeden Fall solltest Du meine Postings mal richtig lesen, dann wüßtest Du, das ich ein absoluter Vertreter des -falls möglich- NichtKampfes bzw. Kampf vermeidens bin.

Wär wohl ungeschickt, sich nicht für dieses Thema zu interessieren, bei meinem Job.

Wenigstens sprech ich Leute direkt an!

Noch einen schönen Tag!

NGR

Ralf