JKD und Straight Lead

[Tangkapan]

Hi,
interesting thread, some great comments and pointers. Concerning the Jab/Str Lead dilemma, I would suggest you learn and practise both really well and research your own experience on form and function. No reason to get confused that others may arrive to different results, that is the nature of martial arts. Different strokes for different folks.

About the famous sayings "...just a name, jkd has no techniques, jkd is like you, etc..." I came to the conclusion that though proper context of Lees notes or writings one may come from at least 3 differnt point of views. Where the use of the term "JKD" is synanomous for: 1.) His personal training, 2.) Curriculum he is teaching to his students 3.) Umbrella term for Martial arts in general. Depending on the context the word JKD has a different meaning in those quotes. Now any debate on those sayings without proper context is futile and has to lead to argument and confusion.

just my 0,2 cts.

Bob Dubljanin

Hello Bob,
long time no see..
How is Cass?
Do you still have contact to the pendekar, or is it mainly Danny H. now?

Greetings
Ralf

[SteFanJKD]

No, its just the way "you" defines JKD for yourself...thanks not everybody does ist that way.
I know a big deal of people who have been there and think differently from your standpoint. That's okay with me...

It is okey with me also that others don't think like i do. But i would not say "thanks not", I simply think it is good that we share different oppinions

It is also no surprise that you know a big deal of people who think differently because as we know my way of thinking is not so well represented in germany.

I came to the conclusion that though proper context of Lees notes or writings one may come from at least 3 differnt point of views. Where the use of the term "JKD" is synanomous for: 1.) His personal training, 2.) Curriculum he is teaching to his students 3.) Umbrella term for Martial arts in general.

You are right. I have an intresting experiment. If people say JKD is different than this or that, let the name of JKD be wiped out". This is intresting, what will we have then. Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

It is okey with me also that others don't think like i do. But i would not say "thanks not", I simply think it is good that we share different oppinions

It is also no surprise that you know a big deal of people who think differently because as we know my way of thinking is not so well represented in germany.

/SteFan

we agree on that. Its the dilema that we are talking about an art, not a science, even when some people try to consider it otherwise.

[Hongmen]

Eben.
Deswegen wird auch keine "45,564 grad fausthaltung" unterrichtet, sondern "die relaxte".

Es ist also weder genau so-und-so viel Grad, aber auch nicht "völlig egal, kann jeder machen wie man will"...

dafür muss man "das" aber dann auch erstmal wissen, was dahinter steckt, und ich glaube, DA hapert es bei vielen vielleicht etwas

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead"!

Ist zwar kein zertifiertes JKD, hat aber grundlegend damit zu tun! Weil in meinem KK-Lebenslauf, Jun Fan eine große Rolle spielte (spielt)!

Gruß
Hongmen

[SteFanJKD]

Its the dilema that we are talking about an art, not a science, even when some people try to consider it otherwise.

This is intresting. To me JKD is both an artform as well as the science. I think it might has to do with the approach if The search itself (art) is JKD or if you find the same techniques as Bruce Lee (science) is JKD

The Selfexpression part of Bruce Lee's thinking is the art he was teaching through JKD. He said "Artistic skill, does not mean artistic perfection....the artistic activity does not lie in the art as such"

So if we see JKD as simply an artform, the art/JKD/science is not important it is that you "project an inner vision into the world".

If we simply see JKD as a science we concentrate on the artistic performance, we concentrte on the correct JKd On Guard , Footwork, Lead punch etc.

I think that the non-classical of JKD makes JKd both a science and an art.Finding ones own truth, that is the abjective of JKD is the art. When you dofind you truth you perfect it by using science.

So according to me If we have gone through our daily increase, we have absorbes what is useful and rejected what is useluss (the artform of JKD) and are left with the Bruce Lee On Guiard, footwork etc (the science of JKD) we are JKD practitioners. We express ourselves through JKD.

Here is an example of "straight lead"!

Although there is no CERTIFIED JKD, but has to do fundamentally with it! Because in my KK-CV, Jun Fan played a large role (playing)!

I don't see a straight Lead here This person is just flicking his hand out there, I can't realy see if there are any Hammer principle, hand before foot, three point landing and the person is definitely not hurt by the punch. Sure he is using tactics I can relate to JKD, but as far as giving idea how the Sraight Lead should look like I don't thin this is the best clip.

Using the lead hand like this is more what I would consider The JKd Jab, but then again, the clip does not show enough for me to make a good observation of what he is doing

/SteFan

[Gin Lai]

I see what you mean, Stefan. "Throwing garbage" comes to mind, a P.I.A./A.B.D. factor I use quite frequently that works just fine.

[jkdberlin]

This is intresting. To me JKD is both an artform as well as the science. I think it might has to do with the approach if The search itself (art) is JKD or if you find the same techniques as Bruce Lee (science) is JKD

The Selfexpression part of Bruce Lee's thinking is the art he was teaching through JKD. He said "Artistic skill, does not mean artistic perfection....the artistic activity does not lie in the art as such"

So if we see JKD as simply an artform, the art/JKD/science is not important it is that you "project an inner vision into the world".

If we simply see JKD as a science we concentrate on the artistic performance, we concentrte on the correct JKd On Guard , Footwork, Lead punch etc.

I think that the non-classical of JKD makes JKd both a science and an art.Finding ones own truth, that is the abjective of JKD is the art. When you dofind you truth you perfect it by using science.

So according to me If we have gone through our daily increase, we have absorbes what is useful and rejected what is useluss (the artform of JKD) and are left with the Bruce Lee On Guiard, footwork etc (the science of JKD) we are JKD practitioners. We express ourselves through JKD.

I can agree with that.
Music as an art has a science attached to it too. Culture even in the most artistic expressions like literature, painting, architecture etc. is the topic of several sciences.
Nevertheless, if we break it down to the individuum, the expression, the "like" or "dislike" we have an artform, a way of expression the inner artistic self.
Some like the cover song played exactly like the original, same tempo, same cadences, same rythm - perfect. Others like a total new approach to the topic, new instruments, new rythm - a total exression of the original theme through the now perfoming artist. Now we can argue if the song is still the same or if it's a totally new one. This leads us, like Tangkapan said already, undoubtly back to "original" vs. "concepts"...not worth it for me.

So the thing we were discussing, fits here too. For me it is the art of JKD if I do my Jet Tek with the heel or the flat of the foot and it is also JKD if I use the 45 degree turned punch for a straight lead, beacuse it fits my artistic expression or my feeling at that time frame. I use the vertical fist more in shorter range. For wider range, I use the likely 45 -60 degree turned fist. It serves the exact same purpose and does it job in the principles, concepts, tactics and strategies of JKD.
So I am definitly more concerened with the outcome in a certain set of given principles, then with the exact (scientific) way.
"Efficiency is anything that scores."

The major problem with the scientific way lies in the "theory" or "thesis" discussion of nature sciences. You won't have the reproductable results in combat between humans, you will not have the exact same setting, there is no laboratory way of scientific prove. Like one of my teachers said "in combat there are no guarantees".

Greetings

[jkdberlin]

I don't see a straight Lead here

Neither do I.
It is far away from anything that I would refer as a JKD Straight Lead Punch.

[Bearcat44]

Well, in my rookie () opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35)

What do the JKD-Elderly () say to this?

[FCVT]

Well, in my rookie () opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35)

What do the JKD-Elderly () say to this?

to me, this is definitly not a straight lead... its a mid-thing between jab and straight lead...

[cbJKD Wilfried]

while many think the straight lead in JFJKD has to be exactly done like this and that, there´s diffrent ways to throw them. The diffrence occurs depending on if you hit stationary, moving back or moving forward,

Stationary you use what for example Jerry Poteet calls theory of overlapping and concurring circles, the execution is not straight in and out, it´s a slight curve.

Then there is the straight lead with the "step out" where you only move your front foot. That´s like "half stationary". That´s what s been featured in the WNG clip.

Then you have the "Ted Wong JKD" straight lead mechanic with a full step, three point landing etc.

Then you have the straight lead moving backwards, which is thrown diffrently too, cause you need to wait for the rear heel to touch down before you can put a forward momentum into the punch, much like the Jerry Poteet execution.

It´s not "special" how these diffrences occur and no "secret knowledge" or "my punch is diffrent from other punches cause i know more".

There is only a limited amount of ways to put your weight behind the straight punch thrown from the lead while moving forward, backward and sideways or not moving at all and all of the JKD executions can be understood very quickly and tested against other methods to see if they re valid or if the instructor is just making it up to sound more clever than others.
If it doesnt make your punch harder, it´s BS.

I agree with Frank partially, while there is no lab to keep the same setting in a physical altercation due to the human factor, you can in a more limited way research speed, impact and power of a single or combination technique on equipment. If you can reproduce the "perfect punch" under this conditions and you work on application, meaning trying to reproduce the same speed, power, alignment etc while moving with an opponent you will probably become better than by not researching punching methods and start hitting each other right away.

I think the whole goal with MA training is : "avoid getting hit, while hitting yourself and with as little effort as possible"-
the first part comes from sparring and experience, the second part from punching/kicking techniques that result in knockout power when you hit.

A good balance of scientific approach and practical testing and application should be applied by anyone practising this or that form of JFJKD in my opinion.

Wilfried

[Bearcat44]

to me, this is definitly not a straight lead... its a mid-thing between jab and straight lead...

Would you please explain, why?

[SteFanJKD]

Some like the cover song played exactly like the original, same tempo, same cadences, same rythm - perfect. Others like a total new approach to the topic, new instruments, new rythm - a total exression of the original theme through the now perfoming artist. Now we can argue if the song is still the same or if it's a totally new one. This leads us, like Tangkapan said already, undoubtly back to "original" vs. "concepts"...not worth it for me.

It is defenitely worth to have an open discussion about this in my JKD approcah, to me JKD is about knowing your subject well, from all angles, a total and openmided observation of JKD.

to me it is very logical that there is a new approach with new instruments new rhytm there is need to argue if it is different, it is is like oranges and apples, no matter how much you want an apple to taste like oranges it will not

This leads me to the discussion about JKD, and I automatically get back to what I have said, it depends on if JKD is the search itself or what you find, if JKD is a "fruit" or an "apple", if JKD is about searching for any fruit you like or if JKD is to find an "apple" and on the way get the taste of other fruits to find out if apples are our favourute fruit.

The only difficulty is that we cannot say if JKD to Bruce Lee was about the search itself or if what he considered what he found as JKD, and tghis to me is defenitely worth discussiong if we want to have an openminded view upon our own JKD.

So I am definitly more concerened with the outcome in a certain set of given principles, then with the exact (scientific) way.
"Efficiency is anything that scores."

I am also more intrested with the outcome. Yes Efficiency is anything that scores, but is anything that scores efficiently JKD I belive bruce Lee wanted everybody to find what the best way scored efficiently for them, he did not want them simply to copy what he felt scored efficiently for him in his JKD

The major problem with the scientific way lies in the "theory" or "thesis" discussion of nature sciences. You won't have the reproductable results in combat between humans, you will not have the exact same setting, there is no laboratory way of scientific prove. Like one of my teachers said "in combat there are no guarantees".

This takes me to the issue of "No form" and "without form". Obviously we cannot desect a "fight like a corpse", or try to "rap water into paper". But whatever will happen in a fight you must stand, move and punch in a specific way, you must have a plan how to stand, how to move and how to attack and defenese. This is the "form" you will be using in fighting, it is not the "form" of the fight itself.

I think that Bruce Lee said to train a technique/style until it is "No form" until your tools hit by itself is that you prepare for this outside the actual fight. If everytime you hit the heavy Bag, focus glove, shadowbox, pair up for partner traning and use the same response against a straight punch I belive that your chance of that particulat movemnets comes out in a fight, no mater how it is impossible to predict what comes. The fact is that there are hundred and hundreds of punches that can come in that straigt anagle, but it is stil a straight angle. The problem is when you have 10-20 responses to the same angle, change your stance, change you "style", then you probably are "without form2 since you have not perfected them into becoming spontanoeus, into your spine, you have not made you techniques "No form"

Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

So even without knowing what the oppopnent will do, he believed that his body would respond with the techniques he had trained 2to hit by itself". He simply didn't belive that the Karate and kung Fu approcah prepared hi for that, it was not "simply and direct", He liked Boxing, but it was not a complete system. What did he do? He found his own truth and wanted everybody to do the same if his contribution, JKD, did notwork for his students.

[SteFanJKD]

cbJKD Wilfried while many think the straight lead in JFJKD has to be exactly done like this and that, there´s diffrent ways to throw them. The diffrence occurs depending on if you hit stationary, moving back or moving forward,

If we are talking Jun Fan JKD, the history and evolution of Bruce lee's Fighting techniques, the daily Increase we will find many ways

This is why I feel it is nesessary to research the history of JKD, "the past" of JKD. By understanding the past we will understand the future. But the important thing is to live in the now.

Wlfried, you forgot Herb Jacksons favourite, the sk. Whipping Jab.

There is only a limited amount of ways to put your weight behind the straight punch thrown from the lead while moving forward, backward and sideways or not moving at all and all of the JKD executions can be understood very quickly and tested against other methods to see if they re valid or if the instructor is just making it up to sound more clever than others.

Furthermore, the way you position your body has to do with "postures in realting force". Bruce lee did a lot of research on the human anatomy and physics when he created JKD. I have tested a lot of variations during the years, I have tried the half twisted fist, I have tried punching like a boxer when moving etc.

I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..

I put this punch in the same category like Bob Bremers. I believe it is a personal approach to making a Lead straight work for them when the Straight Lead Bruce Lee created in JKD did not work for them.

To me JKD is what worked for Bruce, what took Ted 6 months to learn, the same punch I have chosen to start my daily decrease with.

If then Bob Bremers way, Herb jacksons way or any other way works best we have all found our truth. We are all following Bruce Lee's way of thinking.

If people say that my way is simply copying Bruce or I say that doing something else is not JKD, Bruce Lee's truth simply your own truth is not important. It is just selfknowledge, and as long as we have open discussions "without fuss" about this JKD will live on.

/SteFan

[jkdberlin]

So even without knowing what the oppopnent will do, he believed that his body would respond with the techniques he had trained 2to hit by itself". He simply didn't belive that the Karate and kung Fu approcah prepared hi for that, it was not "simply and direct", He liked Boxing, but it was not a complete system. What did he do? He found his own truth and wanted everybody to do the same if his contribution, JKD, did notwork for his students.

Once again, although this sums it up pretty much for me, it might not be his, Bruce Lee's, JKD it is arguable if it still JKD or if it is something totally different. In the first part you can argue that JKD died with Bruce Lee or if you have to be a clone and move exactly a 100% like him. In the later part the question remains to be answered where do you draw the line. What is necessary to be called JKD, what is in the realm of personal interpretation or individual preferences or abilities.

Greetings