Der Beginn der jap. Kampfkunst in Deutschland !!!

[Gast]

ich sage es mal so:
wenn man plant, etwas zu publizieren, wird diese (wissenschaftliche?) publikation doch nicht dadurch beeinträchtigt oder verhindert, daß man vorab etwas veröffentlicht, daß sich "abstract" nennt, oder?

darin legt man ja gewöhnlich dar, welche these man wissenschaftlich untersuchen wird und weist auf besonderheiten des themas hin ("ich werde außerdem anhand von ... ausführlich darlegen, wieso ... / ich werde ausführlich anhand von ... widerlegen, daß ...").
man nennt sogar schon vorab die eine der andere quelle oder gibt hinweise auf die verwendeten quellen.

ob das thema nun aus sportwissenschaftlicher sicht oder aus sicht der japanologie oder der geschichtswissenschaft dargestellt wird, ist dabei doch unerheblich, da das procedere dasselbe ist. (wobei man bei einer publikation aus japanologischer sicht natürlich erwarten darf, daß der verfasser die japanische sprache in wort und schrift perfekt beherrscht).




ich glaube, daß eine buchveröffentlichung nicht davon gefährdet würde, wenn hier in dieser debatte bereits ein oder zwei hieb- und stichfeste belege aus zitierfähigen quellen zu einer oder zu zwei der drängendsten fragen gepostet würden.
denn was wäre zu befürchten?
richtig - nichts.

niemand wird diese belege an sich reißen und in windeseile ein eigenes buch herausgeben.
falls doch, ist es sehr einfach, nachzuweisen, daß er NICHT der erste war, der diese belege publiziert hat.
die beiträge hier in forum sind ja mit einem zeitstempel versehen ...

ich würde mir verschiedene dinge wünschen.
erstens wäre ich sehr daran interessiert, daß die korrekten lebensdaten higashis endlich gepostet werden.

zweitens wäre es schön, wenn eine verbindung higashis zu masao tsutsumi nachgewiesen werden könnte. wenn möglich auch eine trainingsbeteiligung higashis in der hozan ryu, und ich hätte auch gern einen beleg für eine wie auch immer geartete graduierung higashis in dieser schule.

drittens hätte ich gern einen handfesten beweis für die behauptete verbindung higashis zu shiten ryu (?), ebenfalls mit einem nachweis der trainingsteilnahme verbunden und einem graduierungsnachweis.

viertens hätte ich gern einen unwiderlegbaren beweis dafür, daß rahn und higashi sich nicht nur trafen, sondern auch miteinander trainierten. rahns bloße behauptung reicht mir diesbezüglich nicht.

fünftens wäre ich sehr daran interessiert, zu erfahren, wieso rahn von den graduierungssystemen der japanischen kk keine ahnung hatte und erst zwanzig jahre nach gründung seiner schule das tragen farbiger gürtel einführte. dazu wäre ich erfreut, wenn erstens nachweisbar dargelegt würde, wie das graduierungssystem der tsutsumi hozan ryu zu rahns zeiten aussah und ob es in übereinstimmung zu bringen ist mit dem, was higashi darüber 1906 schrieb.

sechstens hätte ich gern eine nachvollziehbare und belegbare begründung dafür, warum higashi im april 1906 etwas vom graduierungssystem der hozan ryu schrieb, aber seinem angeblichen schüler erich rahn nur wenige monate (!) vorher offenbar nichts über dieses graduierungssystem mitgeteilt zu haben scheint ...

das sind erstmal die simpelsten, offenkundigsten fragen, die sich sozusagen ganz automatisch ergeben.
für die beantwortung dieser fragen wäre ich sehr dankbar, möchte aber dazu keine spekulationen hören, sondern belegbare fakten.


eine anmerkung zum schluß: wenn man in mehreren foren ankündigt, die bisherigen erkennsnisse zu rahn, higashi und der tsutsumi hozan ryu über den haufen werfen zu können, muß man doch damit rechnen, daß sofort fragen auftauchen.
fragen nach belegen und quellen.
diese fragen sollte man schon konkret beantworten, denke ich.
auf einwände sollte man dezidiert eingehen, denn begründete zweifel und einwände sind ja genau das, was einem wissenschaftlichen artikel im rahmen eine "peer review" ohnehin bevorsteht.
vielleicht sollte man also solche einwände vorab klären und nicht damit warten, bis das buch erschienen ist?
wenn das buch erstmal auf dem markt ist, kann man irrtümer und ungenauigkeiten nicht mehr korrigieren.


davon abgesehen - ich wünsche sukoshi alles gute für sein buch.

[Wong F.]

Ja sorry, gewisse Antworten wird es erst mit erscheinen geben. Daher bitte ich um etwas Geduld

Nach dem, was bis hier zu lesen war... (ich wollte "lächerlich" schreiben, aber auch nicht unhöflich sein. Geht nicht zusammen, oder?)

[AlexAikido]

Rambats Hinweis solltest du dir zu Herzen nehmen Sukoshi:

Die Klärung der einfachsten Fragen würde der Publikation keinen Schaden einbringen, im Gegenteil könntest du sogar dadurch noch etwaige Ungenauigkeiten überprüfen und mögliche Fragen der kritischen (weil ja "wissenschaftlich") Leser vom Fach im Voraus aufklären können. Da du dich aber ständig verweigerst und lediglich Allgemeinplätze nutzt, frage ich mich so langsam wie weit her das mit der tatsächlichen "Wissenschaftlichkeit nun bei dir ist". Hast du irgend einen wissenschaftlichen Hintergrund??? Würde mich persönlich interessieren, gern die Antwort auch per PN.

[* Silverback]

Könnte mir auch durchaus vorstellen, dass ein "geheimes Vorgehen" der Sache/ dem Buch mehr schaden, als nutzen würde.
Weil: Mag sein, dass bei weiterem "Geheimnis" EINER (z.B. rambat) vor Neugierde platzt, und das Buch kauft. Sollte aber seine Neugierde nicht hinreichend befriedigt werden, könnte es ja passieren, dass sie posthum in echte Enttäuschung umschlägt und diese Enttäuschung dann ua. hier im Forum oder auch elsewhere im Netz verbreitet würde (und wie Infos viral werden können, kann man ja derzeit in einem anderen kkb-Strang nachlesen).

Mithin spräche für meinen Begriff einiges dafür, die Katze (oder ein paar kleinere Kätzchen) vorab aus dem Sack zu lassen ... mit der Chance, ggf. sogar noch ein paar Hinweise vorab zu bekommen - anstatt zu riskieren, dass das ganze Werk (in dem ja sicherlich Blut, Schweiß und Tränen stecken) hinterher öffentlich zerrissen wird.

Just my 2 cents.

[Lugasch]

Ich hab keen Plan von nüschts, habe aber dies im Netz gefunden: https://books.google.de/books?id=iYP...sukuma&f=false
Im Kapitel 5 wird der Kampf zwischen Bothner und Higashi beschrieben und auch der zwischen Higashi und Tani. Von den ersten beiden gibts Einzelfotos und weiter unten stehen auch ein Paar Quellen.
Hat jetzt nix mit Deutschland zu tun, leuchtet aber die Person Higashi vll. etwas mehr aus.

[zocker]

... [Erich Rahn] ... Einer seiner Schüler war gar intensiv an der Taekwondo-Entwicklung in Deutschland beteiligt. ...

wirklich?

hat dieser schüler möglicherweise u.a. die Schwarzen Sheriffs, den ZSD, die INTERKO, Kenjitsu, die OH-DO-KWAN-Sportschulen und den DTB gegründet, war in München ansässig, ist mittlerweile verstorben, fing mit "C." an und hörte mit "Wiedmeier" auf?

falls ja, könnte ich mir schon denken, um wen es sich handelte.


grüsse

[Huangshan]

Hier sind einige Artikel zum Thema , Herausforderungs Kämpfe und speziell der Kampf Tani vs Higashi.











Quelle:
http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/foru...11-7:2517206-5

[Gast]

ich bezweifle, daß wir hier in dieser diskussion weiterkommen.
es werden - wie auch schon in anderen foren in den vergangenen zehn oder mehr jahren - immer wieder die gleichen fragen gestellt, auf die dann niemand eine zufriedenstellende antwort geben kann.

spekulationen bringen uns nicht weiter.
solange jedoch behauptungen und thesen nicht belegt werden (können), bleiben es spekulationen.

man kann aus allen möglichen (nicht zitierfähigen) quellen alles mögliche schlußfolgern und ableiten, allerdings ist auch das dann nichts weiter als spekulation.
und auf jede so "begründtete" these könnte man mit einer gegenthese antworten. das aber wäre dann keine am gegenstand orientierte sachdebatte mehr.

deshalb wiederhole ich es: es sind fragen anhängig, die auf eine beantwortung warten.

zur erinnerung - ich hätte gern, daß sukoshi die (belegbaren) lebensdaten katsukuma higashis hier im thread postet.
das wäre zumindest ein anfang.
ich hätte auch gern, daß eine verbindung higashis zu rahn endlich belegt wird. von mir aus mit fotos, auf denen beide EINDEUTIG zu erkennen sind. noch besser wären fotos, die beide beim gemeinsamen training zeigen.

solche belege würden viele einwände entkräften und widerlegen.

sodann wäre ich sehr interessiert an eindeutigen belegen (einträge in die offiziellen rollen der jeweiligen koryu), die eine mitgliedschaft katsukuma higashis in einer koryu nachweisen.
wenn möglich, mit graduierung.

ich denke, da sind die mindestanforderungen, die erfüllt sein müssen, damit die diskussion hier vernünftig weitergehen kann.
werden diese indestanforderungen nicht erfüllt, erübrigt sich jede weitere debatte, denn WORÜBER diskutieren wir dann eigetlich noch?

[Huangshan]

1905-1-29 NY Tribune. Higashi advertises his academy as the new jiujitsu to capitalize on the popularity of jiudo. Higashi was a pioneer in the targeting of children as customers, placing ads in the ladies sections of the Daily papers.

1905-1-29 Honolulu Pacific Commercial Advertiser

Higashi war laut einiger Artikel in den USA aktiv.
Hatte dort eine Schule in New York.

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/foru...atch:2515413-2

[Gast]

es ist ja nun nicht sonderlich schwer, im netz etwas über higashi zu finden (auch wenn die eigentlich interessanten fragen, die man zu dieser person hat, eher nicht benatwortet werden) ...

hier ein interview mit higashi, in dem higashi mal wieder ziemlich viel unsinn über judo erzählt ...

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm

This article originally appeared in the May 1905 issue of The Cosmopolitan. All spellings and name orders appear as published in the original text. Richard Bowen, Jan de Jong, Graham Noble, Robert W. Smith, and the New York University Archives contributed information that was used in the notes, which were prepared by Joseph R. Svinth.

"I say with emphasis and without qualification that I have been unable to find anything in jujitsu which is not known to Western wrestling. So far as I can see, jujitsu is nothing more than an Oriental form of wrestling. It is a boast of the exploiters of jujitsu that through it any weakling could render helpless even a well-trained athlete, and that, too, without inflicting any injury whatever upon the victim. It would be an entertaining day in my life indeed were I to see such a feat accomplished." – Statement by Mr. Leonard after exhibition by Mr. Higashi.

"American wrestlers are strong – much stronger than any of us pretend to be in muscular strength. After all, however, wrestling is wrestling. Against jujitsu it is mere child’s-play. I have met a number of Western wrestlers, and they are as helpless as babes against the art of jujitsu. And no one versed in the art of jujitsu is mad enough to expect anything else." – Statement by Mr. Higashi after exhibition by Mr. Leonard.

"And what is jujitsu?"

Mr. Higashi – "What we always keep in view as the end and aim of the art of jujitsu is quite distinct from wrestling. To be sure, all that has just been mentioned is the goal toward which one aspect of jujitsu training also strives. But there are three stages in jujitsu. [EN1] Between the first and wrestling there is not much difference. Wrestling, both in Nippon and in the West, has the distinct ends in view that you have just described: it forms a distinct program of gymnastics in itself; it is not a part of something else – a means to an end. With jujitsu, the holds and tricks of wrestling are an elementary step to lead a man to something else. Naturally you have developed to a greater extant than we have done in the first and elementary stage of jujitsu, and to a higher state of perfection, those holds and tricks which are confined to wrestling. Whoever would understand the true meaning of the art of jujitsu must always keep this in mind – that the end of jujitsu is self defense. The science and practice of jujitsu both end in discovering and attaining as effective and relatively perfect a means of self-defense as possible under all manners of attacks.

"In jujitsu training many conditions are imposed upon us which are out of place with any other athletic sports. When you are attacked on the street, for instance, you would rarely find yourself or the assailant stripped to the skin, and so we require the students of jujitsu to go through their exercises in their street costume, and those of us who can hardly afford to spoil a suit every time we come upon the training mat wear these jackets and girdles, which would take the place, to all practical purposes, of the street costumes of Tokyo. This also is the reason why in jujitsu we do not put a fence about the style of tricks and attacks and call any of them foul. When you are abroad at night – and on such occasions it is that a training in jujitsu is most likely to serve you – you can hardly dictate the manner of attack to a thug. If effective as a method of self-defense at all, jujitsu must train persons to be prepared for all imaginable methods of attack and assault.

"There are one hundred and sixty ‘hands,’ or tricks, in the three departments of jujitsu. Besides these, and outranking them all, there are ten tricks which are so secret that they are almost sacred to the devotees of jujitsu. They are usually handed down from one master to another, much after the manner of family secrets. Now, a large majority of all these are considered foul in wrestling."

Mr. Leonard – "But the dangerous tricks and holds which you speak of as being ruled out in our wrestling are, I am certain, thoroughly well known to all wrestlers worth the name in this country. And as for the claim of jujitsu in regard to its secret tricks, I have never seen them demonstrated against a thoroughly trained wrestler. [EN2] I am not afraid of spooks, nor of the miracles attributed to the masters of jujitsu. And I am happy to say that I am in a position to afford my statement something a little more solid than mere words."

(EN2. While Higashi appeared in many public exhibitions during late 1904 and early 1905, his opponents included a university athletic director, a football player, and a weightlifting bicycle cop. Thus Leonard’s cynicism.)

... und was higashi NUN erklärt, ist einfach bullshit:

Mr. Higashi – "First, let me continue. Jujitsu is neither a sport nor a pastime; instead of on a mat, or in a sanded circle, as with wrestling, its arena is wherever an attack awaits you. As a matter of fact, the purely gymnastic feature of jujitsu is of a late development. Some two hundred years ago in the city of Kyoto, there lived a master of jujitsu called Suzuki. There he opened a training hall; and history points to that as the beginning of scientific jujitsu in Nippon. [EN3] In his days, he taught and practiced only those tricks, or hands, which are now called serious tricks. He and his school confined themselves to the first or the final stage of the three divisions of jujitsu known at the present day. Samurai went abroad with their two swords at their belts, in those days, and the Kyoto master used to train his men with the two swords at their belts. When you were seized from behind and a pair of powerful arms held your weapons against your body so that you could not draw them, he taught a trick which would set them at liberty.

"Judo – as jujitsu is oftener called at home – spread all over the country; at Kumamoto was Hoshino, and at Kagoshima, Tsutsumi was the acknowledged master. And Tsutsumi, the Kagoshima master, was the first who extended the sphere of judo and included therein many gymnastic exercises. And those holds and tricks which he taught have been from his day called the simple tricks. Mr. Kano, who is at the head of the Kano school of Tokyo to-day, took up judo where Tsutsumi left off, and added a number of exercises. These largely form the simple tricks of the third department of judo.

"As you see, then, judo as it exists in Nippon to-day has three stages of development. It starts with the third, or the elementary stage, with simple gymnastic exercises. Between these simple tricks and the holds in wrestling there is a good deal of resemblance. Only, these simple tricks are a means to an end; they are modified to serve the specific end of self-defense, and under somewhat different circumstances than those of wrestling. Moreover, these simple tricks are always arranged with an eye to their serving as preliminary steps to the serious tricks. When meeting a wrestler on a mat, a jujitsu-shi always employs all these simple tricks, and also some of the simple tricks belonging to the second division of judo. And in this department, there are only fifty tricks, whereas you have in Western wrestling some two hundred different holds. To sum up, the end and aim of judo is, as I have tried to emphasize, self-defense. With the simple tricks of the third division, it is practically impossible to overcome an American wrestler, as he is usually much superior in strength."

(EN3. This describes the history of Higashi’s own system rather than the history of jujutsu.)

klingt das, als wüßte higashi tatsächlich etwas über koryu oder kanos judo?
nein.

Mr. Leonard – "As I understand it, then, the purely athletic, or gymnastic, holds which jujitsu teaches are in no wise different, in general, from the holds known to an ordinary wrestler, and it is only by its mysterious ‘secret tricks’ that jujitsu claims to be able to work its wonders. But if the aim and end of jujitsu is wholly self-defense, and no means are held to be too unfair to be employed, why should jujitsu concern itself with athletics at all? I should very much like to see an exhibition of these mysterious powers. Can you not illustrate to me how these tricks are done?

Mr. Higashi – "That would be impossible without incurring danger, which I am unwilling to do. A friend of mine once broke the arm of a student at an American college, and was in much danger of arrest. I do not care to run a similar risk. But I may explain that the most essential element in the make-up of a good jujitsu master is the mind. Will-power is the faculty of the mind that plays the most prominent part in the art of judo. Then, nerves the center of equilibrium of which, so to speak, can hardly be shaken. Then, a pretty good knowledge of anatomy. After that, all is practice. Unlike wrestling, weight does not count in judo. In fact, in a number of cases it would be easier to train a weak man to master judo than a strong one. A man naturally strong in muscular powers will, consciously or unconsciously, rely much upon his mere strength. In judo, it is essential that one learn to utilize the strength of his opponent against himself. The first thing which we try to teach is to attain as perfect a state of bodily passivity as possible. And this is the reason why in so many cases women are better candidates for the mastery of judo than men. [EN4] Another thing we try to teach is how to fall upon hard ground or a floor without hurting oneself. A drunkard who falls from a height is rarely seriously injured; you know the reason of course; the degree of hurt is in proportion to the resistance offered by the system. If one could learn to make oneself perfectly passive, one would seldom get hurt. A number of masters of judo can break a pretty thick piece of marble tablet with a blow dealt by the edge of their open hands. It is not the strength that breaks the tablet; it is the rapidity of the motion. A judo master ought to be able – I do not say every time, but nine times out of ten – to break the wrist of a boxer, for example, with the edge of his open hand when the fist flies toward him. [EN5]

"As I have said, the number of tricks is comparatively small; it is not so hard to learn them. It is not quite so simple, however, to train your eye and muscle to the proper speed. The rest is largely psychical."

(EN5. Higashi’s arm-breaking statistic sounds exaggerated. Bare-knuckle boxers were more likely to break their own thumbs than opponents’ forearms, and the famous karateka Shigeru Egami reported breaking only one forearm during forty-odd years of trying.)

also genau das, was wir heute auch kennen ...
"tödliche tricks", die man weder im randori noch im wettkampf noch im rahmen einer demonstration vorführen kann, weil sie zu gefährlich sind.
und dann kommen beispiele von namentlich ungenannt bleibenden "meistern", die mit diesen "tödlichen techniken" aber schon oft ... und früher mal ... aber heute wäre das ja unverantwortlich ...

ich glaube, higashi hat sich mit diesen äußerungen keinen gefallen getan.

(damit der beitrag nicht zu lang wird, zitiere ich das interview im nächsten beitrag weiter)

[Gast]

Mr. Leonard – "Does hypnotism play any part in the advanced stage of jujitsu?"

Mr. Higashi – "Not as such – that is to say, hypnotic influence as such has no place in the science of judo. Nevertheless, I might say that hypnotism in a modified form certainly exists in judo. Judo believes in the mastery of one mind over another in a contest. I can quite understand how it is that to the Western eye, a number of feats of judo must appear little short of miraculous."

Mr. Leonard – "I have never seen any of those feats. Can you tell us some of those which are rather commonly practised? I should be rather interested to see some of these modern miracles."

Mr. Higashi – "Take, for example, this case. If you or any one else would bring here two poles of bamboo and let them be put upon the floor closely together, I would pillow my neck upon them in such a manner that the two poles would support the nape of my neck. After that, two more poles of bamboo might be brought and laid upon my throat in such a way that the poles would sandwich my neck both from the front and on the back. A pair of strong pieces of rope might then be taken and tied on either end of the bamboo poles, and rather forcibly, too. My neck would be, naturally, compressed by this tightening. You might then place yourself with all your weight on the bamboo poles on one side of my neck, and you might ask one of your friends to do the same on the other side. These things done, all that I should ask you is to give me a signal and a second later I shall be out of the tight hugging of the poles. [EN6] The neck is a rather important portion of the body, and all sorts of exercises are devised for its protection.

"Another thing: In Nippon our exercise-rooms are covered with padded mats, six feet by three in size. If a man happened to be sitting in one of these mat-covered rooms with me, and it pleased his fancy to attack me, I could make one of the mats rise from the floor and fight for me against my opponent. I would simply kick one end of the mat between my opponent and myself, and send it flying at him so that the edge would catch him in the abdomen or his face or by the legs, as the case may be."

Mr. Leonard – "I have heard it said that you can, through jujitsu, kill a man and then bring him back again to life at your pleasure."

Mr. Higashi – "Oh, yes, you are speaking of katsu. [EN7] There are three principal katsu – no-katsu, kin-katsu and shime-katsu, according to the location where the reviving blow should be dealt, and also according to the manner of bringing the unconscious back to life. Judo has no ambition to compete with professional men of medicine. Sometimes one form of katsu is much more effective and much simpler than any means that medicine knows. Breaking an opponent’s arms, neck, back, legs, are some of the objects to which a large number of the tricks of judo are devoted. But the serious tricks almost altogether affect the very life of a man. Not to every one, however, are given the secrets of serious tricks. Before a man can receive them from his instructor, he must first of all prove to his satisfaction that he is a gentleman. No master of judo for one moment thinks of so rash a thing as teaching the serious tricks to one of his pupils who has not time and time again proved that he can command his temper under mercilessly trying conditions."

Mr. Leonard – "At about what age is the training of a young man in judo begun in your country?"

Mr. Higashi – "At an early age; seven or eight years. [EN8] Preliminary trainings in judo are arranged in eight grades [kyu]. There are few exceptional cases in which a beginner may successfully climb up the eight within one year. After passing the first grade, only then can he be said to have begun to understand something of the art of judo. He then joins a class of beginners called shodan. It is a far cry from this stage of his attainment to the mastery of judo. It is the beginning of serious work; in the shodan stage a man usually learns the price which one must pay to become the master of his body. I suppose you do not commence the training in wrestling quite so early as that?"

Mr. Leonard – "No, we wait until they are older. Some boys are more mature at sixteen than others at eighteen. But seventeen is a good age; usually it is at about that age that American boys take whole-heartedly to the training and sport of wrestling, as well as to a number of other games. Is it absolutely imperative that one should begin as early as seven years of age in order to become a master of judo?"

Mr. Higashi – "It is better that a man should begin his schooling as early as possible. It is not absolutely essential, however."

Mr. Leonard – "If a man of, say, twenty-five or thirty years of age, one hundred and ten pounds in weight, of sedentary habits and delicate constitution, were to come to you to receive your instruction, would you be able to train him so that he would find it an easy matter to defend himself against the attacks of a man of, say, over two hundred pounds, powerfully built and well versed in the art of Western wrestling?"

Mr. Higashi – "Certainly. If the man happened to be a gentleman to the core, sober and sane in temper and high in principle, and if I only could be assured of this fact from the start, so that I should be in a position to entrust to his hands the secrets of serious tricks, six months would be ample time for him to become able to meet a man of twice his weight and three times his muscular strength and overcome him under all circumstances." [EN9]

Mr. Leonard – "You interest me, but I am not convinced. Will you now show me some of the holds and tricks of jujitsu? Afterward I will show you some of the principal holds of wrestling. The serious tricks and the psychology I should be especially glad to have an illustration of, if that could be done."

Mr. Higashi – "As I said, that cannot be done except at a risk which I am not willing to take. I can, however, show you some holds by which we overcome an opponent. By this hold (see Figure 2) I might break your arm over my left leg, gripping you rigidly to the floor by my right hand on your neck. Is it not so?" [EN10]

seht euch bitte auf der verlinkten seite das foto dazu an.

Mr. Leonard – "I doubt if you could get such a hold on a scientific wrestler. One of the cardinal principles of our wrestling is to keep the arms bent while in action, and this would make it very difficult for you to secure the hold you have on the left arm. The throat hold could easily be broken by turning to the left."

Mr. Higashi – "That is a matter of opinion, and you might be able to break the hold, but I am sure I should break your arm."

Mr. Leonard – "I think I can show you a trick worth two of that. I have you on the floor, on your knees (Figure 3). I fling my left arm about your neck, grip it with my right hand, and choke you. That is called a back strangle hold; it is one of the most brutal known to wrestling. Here is another. You are still on your knees. I force you flat on your face (Figure 4), and with a half-Nelson on the leg, which renders you helpless, I strain your knee and break your ankle."

Mr. Higashi – "Very well. Here is how I can throw you over my back, heavily, stunning you" (Figure 5).

Mr. Leonard – "Quite right. That is a hip-lock, well known to American wrestlers. [EN11] And here (Figure 6) is a head-lock, by which an opponent can be thrown to the floor with such force as to end the contest. Let me show you the octus (Figure 7). The punishment of this hold is effected by jouncing an opponent and forcing his own weight upon his neck. Another effective hold popular with wrestlers is the bar-hammer lock and half-Nelson (Figure 1), got by forcing the hammer-lock with the right hand. In this position, either the arm will be broken or the shoulder dislocated."

Mr. Higashi – "I will show you another way in which I might throw you" (Figure 8).

Mr. Leonard – "The elbow-and-leg hold. We also practise it. It is a good hold."

Mr. Higashi – "Here is another way (Figure 9) in which jujitsu teaches us to throw an opponent."

Mr. Leonard – "Yes: that hold was early used by American wrestlers. We call it the buttock."

Mr. Higashi – "Let me show how I might break your leg if I were on the floor and you about to spring on me (Figure 10). By a quick jerk forward of your right foot with my right leg, and a hard drive of my left against your knee, the weight of your body would be sufficient to snap your leg at the knee." [EN12]

Mr. Leonard – "I can hardly imagine such a result."

ich stimme, nachdem ich die fotos gesehen habe, mit den einschätzungen leonards überein.

[Gast]

Mr. Higashi – "Another way I might break your arm is in this fashion" (Figure 11). [EN13]

Mr. Leonard – "That position, it seems to me, would be almost impossible to secure. I do not see how a strong arm could be bent back so as to injure it. You Japanese are clever and scientific; you evidently have the quality of muscle, upon which both you and we put no little emphasis. But I have yet to see anything that you can show me which we could not match here in America, and in some respects improve upon."

Mr. Higashi – "But I cannot show you our serious tricks."

Mr. Leonard – "Ah!" [EN14]


(EN14. "Ah!" indeed: The US lightweight wrestling champion George Bothner beat Higashi in three straight falls during their match in New York in April 1905. Bothner’s trainers included J.J. O’Brien, the man who introduced President Theodore Roosevelt to jujutsu in 1902.)

meiner meinung nach hat sich higashi in diesem interview nicht mit ruhm bekleckert.
die einwände eines sehr erfahrenen ringers wischt er weg und ist überzeugt davon, daß seine "tricks" besser sind.
die skepsis leonards hingegen ist berechtigt, so jedenfalls sehe ich das.
ich erkenne - soweit das überhaupt möglich ist - in dem, was higashi da demonstriert, einen bedauerlichen mangel an grundlagenwissen, was gleichgewichtsbruch, gewichtsverlagerung, beinarbeit und "positioning" angeht.
dinge, die zu dieser zeit bereits von judoka wie sakujiro yokoyama, shiro saigo, tsunetane oda, mitsuyo maeda und anderen in bemerkenswert guter form im kampf gezeigt wurden.

mein eindruck, daß higashi nicht sehr lange und nicht sehr intensiv die rudimentären grundlagen irgend einer form des "jujutsu" dieser oder jener koryu trainiert hat, verfestigt sich immer mehr.

[Huangshan]

Hier ein Artikel in dem steht :

1905-3-21 Wairarapa Daily Times.

Das Higashi angeblich im Doshisha College in Kyoto Judo Lehrer war?

Er soll Schüler von Kano gewesen sein und seitdem er 9 Jahre alt war Jiu Jistsu praktiziert haben?

Er ist laut Artikel 1883 geboren und zum Zeitpunkt 22 Jahre alt.

Komisch tsutsumi hozan ryu wird nicht erwähnt.

1905-4-11 Minneapolis Journal

Das Dashisha College in Kyoto in dem er Lehrer gewesen sein soll, scheint also ein wichtiger Punkt bei der weiteren Erforschung der Person Katsukuma Higashi zu sein.

[Gast]

mag ja sein, daß ich sukoshi un auf den schlips trete, aber der schnelle niederlage higashis gegen tani zeigt doch wohl ebenso wie die niederlage gegen bothner, daß higashi eine luftpumpe war.

mit der wahrheit hatte er es erkennbar nicht so ...

ich erinnere an sein statement, daß er NACH seiner begegnung mit leonard abgab:

"American wrestlers are strong – much stronger than any of us pretend to be in muscular strength. After all, however, wrestling is wrestling. Against jujitsu it is mere child’s-play. I have met a number of Western wrestlers, and they are as helpless as babes against the art of jujitsu. And no one versed in the art of jujitsu is mad enough to expect anything else." – Statement by Mr. Higashi after exhibition by Mr. Leonard.

vergleicht man das mal mit seinen eigenen kämpfen gegen "western wrestlers", ergibt sich folgendes bild:

While Higashi appeared in many public exhibitions during late 1904 and early 1905, his opponents included a university athletic director, a football player, and a weightlifting bicycle cop. Thus Leonard’s cynicism.

The US lightweight wrestling champion George Bothner beat Higashi in three straight falls during their match in New York in April 1905. Bothner’s trainers included J.J. O’Brien, the man who introduced President Theodore Roosevelt to jujutsu in 1902.

um es noch einmal ganz deutlich zu sagen: ich halte higashi für eine luftpumpe.

ein schüler kanos ... na klar doch.

und als higashi von tani innerhalb kürzester zeit abgewürgt wird, tut er genau das, was ich von vielen anderen luftpumpen kenne - er erklärt tani habe ihn "gefoult".
es sei ein unfairer trick gewesen ...

wie war das doch? was erklärte higashi doch in seinem gespräch mit leonrad?

Whoever would understand the true meaning of the art of jujitsu must always keep this in mind – that the end of jujitsu is self defense. The science and practice of jujitsu both end in discovering and attaining as effective and relatively perfect a means of self-defense as possible under all manners of attacks.

soso ...

luftpumpe.
und DAS ist also der (angebliche) lehrer rahns?
da haben sich ja zwei gesucht und gefunden.

[Hug n' Roll]

Rahn und Higashi?
-Glücksritter und Scharlatane.
Deren Glück, dass die zu ihrer Zeit nicht auf die Kaliber wie Kimura Masahiko oder Royce Gracie getroffen sind.

Das wäre meine Bewertung nach gründlicher Würdigung der hier vorgelegten Fakten.
Für eine Revision dieser Bewertung bedarf es der Vorlage neuer BEWEISE.

Gut, ich bin nicht massgeblich mit meiner Bewertung.
Glaube aber, mit meiner Meinung nicht alleine zu sein, wenn ich äussere, dass die Angelegenheit ohne Vorlage weiterer FAKTEN für mich erledigt ist (mit obigem Urteil).