Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and the “YMCA Consensus”

[kanken]

Ein interessanter Ansatzpunkt wie sich CMA Anfang des 20. Jhd. geändert haben:

https://chinesemartialstudies.com/20...mca-consensus/

Grüße

Kanken

[WulongCha]

Danke für den Artikel. Die Jungs von/um "martialstudies" leisten schon ne ziemlich einzigartige Arbeit (in westlicher Sprache) und auch hier wieder mit klasse Hinweisen auf weiterführende Literatur!

[Donnerfuß]

Ich hoffe, dass einige der User hier, die sich intensiver mir der Geschichte der CMA befasst haben, zu dem Beitrag äußern werden. Tatsächlich sind die Thesen von Scott P. Philipps ja nicht ganz unumstritten. Wenn ich mich nicht täusche, vertritt beispielsweise Kai Filipiak in seinem Buch "Chinesische Kampfkunst. Spiegel und Element traditioneller chinesischer Kultur" ja eine eher gegensätzliche These, wenn er schreibt, dass insbesondere religiöse Interprätationen eher etwas sind, das im Nachhinein auf bestehende Kampfsysteme (insb. Taiji) angewendet wurde.

Aus Theater-geschichtlicher Perpektive machen Philipps' Thesen durchaus Sinn, allerdigs kenne ich mich selbst leider zu wenig detailiert mit der Geschichte der CMA aus...

[kanken]

Ich schrieb ja nicht ohne Grund "interessant"

Generell sollte man, glaube ich, die Finger von absoluten Aussagen lassen.
Für einige Fälle mag das "Aufpropfen" von Religion gelten, für einige der essentielle Bestandteil und das "Reinigen". Gerade im Bereich Theater, Boxer etc. spielte Spiritualität eine große Rolle, in Kombination mit Kampfkunst (mal mehr, mal weniger), siehe Esherick.

Es gibt eben kein Schwarz/Weiß, sondern immer auch Grautöne. Man sollte nur für seine eigene Linie wissen was richtig ist.

Grüße

Kanken

[Donnerfuß]

'Interessant' ist seine These allemal

Ansonsten hast du sicherlich recht, dass man auf absolute Aussagen eher verzichten sollte. Da Scott Philipps aber einen Paradigmenwechsel im Blick auf die kulturelle Verflechtung der CMA anstrebt, sind seine überspitzten Aussagen immerhin nachvollziehbar...

Wie gesagt, ich hoffe, dass sich noch jemand mit profunden geschichtlichen Kenntnissen dazu äußert...

Gruß

[Klaus]

CMA war doch immer total inkohärent, je nachdem wo man herkommt. War man Leibwächter, Dorfwächter, Militäroffizier, Söldner ? Hufschmied mit starker Familientradition und gewissenhaftem ständigem Training nach Feierabend ? Oder geselliger Typ der aus Langeweile abends mal ein bischen gedaddelt hat ? Gaukler, Blender, Operndarsteller ? Wanderlehrer der irgendwas versucht hat zu verkaufen ? Schüler derselben ? Da kommt dann alles mögliche zustande, vom Grinsemann-Volltrottel bis zum eisenzerbeissenden vierschrötigen Schrank.

[kanken]

Neugierig durch den Artikel lese ich jetzt sein Buch:

https://www.amazon.de/Possible-Origi.../dp/0692749012

Wirklich gut!

Er sagt nie es muss so gewesen sein. Er stellt lediglich CMA, chin. Spirtualität und chin. Theater vor und zeigt Gemeinsamkeiten, Unterschiede etc.

Für mich eines der faszienierendsten Bücher, die ich in letzter Zeit gelesen habe.

Kampfkunst, tänzerische Tradition, spirituelle Traditionen, Theater und natürlich auch Militär gehören alle zusammen und haben sich immer auch beeinflusst. In einer Gesellschaft existiert immer alles parallel...

Grüße

Kanken

[Nagare]

Generell sollte man, glaube ich, die Finger von absoluten Aussagen lassen.

Richtig. Es gibt immer feine Nuancen und verschiedene Graustufen zwischen den Schubladen.

In einer Gesellschaft existiert immer alles parallel...

Wie ein Baum mit einem Stamm, verschiedenen Ästen, verschiedenen Blättern, verschiedenen Abkömmlingen und dadurch verschiedenen Stämmen

[Fu Sheng]

Neugierig durch den Artikel lese ich jetzt sein Buch:

https://www.amazon.de/Possible-Origi.../dp/0692749012

Interessanter Buchtipp, danke dafür!

[Huangshan]

Wurde schon einiges erwähnt, deshalb kurz ergänzend:

TCMA wurden von verschiedenen Volksgruppen,Schichten , Religionsgemeinschaften...... praktiziert.

Der Beruf,Religion,Philosophie ... der Ausübenden beienflussten einige Kampfkünste.

Kampfkünste die z:B: in fanatischen Geheimgesellschaften praktiziert wurden unterschieden sich stark von den, die von Leibwächtern etc. ausgeübt wurden.

Siehe z.B. Boxeraufstand(Yihetuan).
http://www.kungfuwebmag.de/033ce29c58106e305.html

auch die Öffnung für die Massen hat einiges verändert:

Jing Wu/Chin Woo Athletic Association 精武體育會

[shin101]

Spirituelle Kampfkünste und Militärische Kampfkünste sind uralt und existieren seit langem parallel.

Es heißt das die Götter vor dem Anfang der Menschlichen Zivilisation die Menschen Kampfkunst als eine Art Ertüchtigung lehrten. Später mit dem Aufsteigen der Zivilisation wurden diese Kenntnisse zum Kampf gegen andere angewandt.

Unterschiede entstanden. Menschen wurden konkret in der Kriegskunst unterwiesen die diese weiter gaben. Zum Beispiel Sun Tsu.
Um so länger die Geschichte fortschritt um so differenzierter wurde es. Manches aus der Anfangszeit verschwand anderes Entstand. Vieles wurde vermischt, was einem den Ursprung nicht mehr erkennen ließ.

Manche haben sich gewisse Dinge auch einfach nur ausgedacht. Komischerweise benutzen die Menschen, aber immer nur diese Beispiele als Maßstab.

Alles in allem ist es soweit gekommen das vieles nur noch als Märchen bezeichnet werden kann, weil keiner mehr glaubt und auch keiner mehr den Unterschied kennt. Das ist jetzt sehr allgemein gesprochen.


Liebe Grüße,
Shin

[Huangshan]

shin101:

Ja es gab, gibt viele Strömungen innerhalb der CMA.

Einige sind sehr ins Theatralistische,Spirituelle etc. abgedriftet.

Der Ming General Qi Jiguang hat schon damals bemerkt, dass viele Kampfsysteme für den Kampf auf dem Schlachtfeld unbrauchbar sind.

Heutzutage ist das Show Wushu ein Beispiel für Theatralik und Akrobatik.

Für Außenstehende und Anfänger ist oft die Trennung zwischen Show und Funktionalität nicht einfach ersichtlich.

[Klaus]

Es haben auch viele Leute seit über 100 Jahren unausgegorenes Gebastel verkauft, einfach weil sie damit ihr Geld verdient haben. Und es kommt auch in echten "Lineages" vor, dass Mitglieder einer Familie einfach wenig vernünftig trainieren (oder gar nicht), sich immer nur mit den gleichen 3 Leuten austauschen, und der ehemals funktionierende Familienstil völlig erodiert zu Gehampel.

[kanken]

Passt hier auch ganz gut rein: Ein FB Kommentar mit einem Zeitzeugenbericht was mit den CMA ab den 70ern passierte und warum sie heute so aussehen, wie sie aussehen:

There is much talk these days, again, about the real practical value of traditional Chinese martial arts.

I have discussed this issue at length and explained that CMA’s have passed through a number of gates in history, losing a piece of their value at each door.

First toward the end of 19th century with the advent of firearms, and the end of a long dynasty.

Again at the hands of the Republican government and its strive toward modernity, the “scientific” word and westernisation.

Then more blows during so-called "Liberation" and later the Cultural Revolution.

The last blow was taken after China opening to the world (1979-80), a complex time of changes, which is described in the short article that I have rendered in English below.

I don't fully agree with the author’s final conclusions but I believe that his account, coming from a witness to those events, can help shed more light on the issue.

YM

===

Memories of a Wushu guy: the “Wushu excavation” that pushed Chinese martial arts into the abyss

I have been practicing martial arts since the late 1970s, I have studied Wuxing Tongbei for over 30 years today, starting out as a 20 y.o. young boy with lots of hair to become a middle aged, white-haired man. In these 30 years I have seen the magnificence of Traditional Martial Arts, but even more I have seen its decline.

The early 80s, around 85-86, can be seen as a time of full prosperity after a time of chaos. Two movies, “Huo Yuanjia” and “Shaolin Temple”, helped to bring out so many dreams among the young wushu pratictioners. At the time, Zhongshan Park, Stalin Square, Labor Park were full of wushu players every morning and every night. Even the Sport Committee started to strongly promote wushu, inviting old masters to teach. My Sifu was honoured with a plaque that he hanged to his door that read - gold characters on a black background - “Society of Tongbei Quan” and that remained there for over 20 years.

In 1982-3 the Government started a National “Excavation” of Traditional Wushu to “inherit and develop” chinese martial arts. All provinces set up a “wushu excavation” team that was linked to all Sports Academies, where the Sport Committee at urban level would arrange visiting the old masters in the hope that all manuals, special weapons, forms and techniques would be passed over to the government. The idea was to let specialists from the government research the whole material and arrange for videotaping all kind of wushu.

The Tongbei Quan group of Dalian was at the time organized by Mr. Li Zengpu who would contact the old masters, arrange pick up by car, and take them to Bangchui Island for the videotaping. These precious videos are still on the web for all of us to watch.

The oldest of the demonstrators was Mr. Liu Boyang, who also transmitted his art the longest, he got the most applauses at every move, and only played the first part of the precious “54 hands” set. The old man then started to teach more openly at county level but unfortunately all of a sudden was struck by a brain hemorrhage that took his life.

Mr. Wang Lianyuan, one of the four Diamonds of Dalian at the time, demonstrated the Wuxing Palm moves and shoulders usage. One can watch his Middle Fist and “zhanshou pishan”, his strength is beyond normal. Unfortunately, he later also accidentally broke his leg and passed away very soon. So these are probably the last images they left of themselves.

While this videotaping was in process all around the country, in Dalian we also did a recording of Liuhe Tanglang and Liuhe stick and in Shenyang I also watched Fanzi Quan, Yuanyang Quan, Maifu Quan being recorded. At the time, the future of wushu looked bright, many of those middle aged practitioners would exchange info, but in fact most of the old masters were on a ‘wait and see’ attitude. In part because of traditional close-mindedness but also because the times of the Cultural Revolution had left a lot of hearts in fear.

I think it was Dickens who said “It was the best of times, and also the worst of times”, the decline of wushu later actually started in this period of prosperity. What did the “excavation teams” actually dug out? We all have seen the videos, apart from a few basic practices, it was all just forms, even single moves sets where nowhere to be seen.

So was it not recorded? Not really, it was edited out, because the ‘excavation teams’ were just after forms.

In Bangchui Island, two disciples of Wang Lianyuan demonstrated sanshou (free sparring) for real, both applying fine techniques, displaying nicely Tongbei’s continuous skills. Master Zhang Beihao guided his disciples in another sanshou demo, I recall he was wearing a yellow suit, in just two moves one of his “pishan” drew blood on his disciple face so that the photographer remarked “wow, they are going at it for real!” and another old master who was sitting by our side said “this is actually how we practice all the times”.

But all these contents cannot be found on those tapes because they would “promote violence” and “ruin our youngsters” … or at least this was the mentality of those in charge of the ‘excavation teams’ at the time.

I know some members of the ‘excavation teams’ in Liaoning were not even practitioners of wushu themselves, so having these laymen guiding the professionals was the biggest of all problems. They were scared that the promotion of fighting skills would bring turmoil in society, and that by return those in charge up above would look for responsibles.
These are actually the exact words a team member told me at the time.

So at the end a lot of forms were the subject of the team research and practice, and a lot of basics and fighting demos were shelved, with nobody asking about them they ended up with only the company of the dust. Isn’t it sad?

From that moment, forms championships were revitalised and complex movements were added all the times.

By that time we started to see a huge number of “form champions” taking the nation by storm, many of them begun to set up their own wushu school, accepting disciples.
The idea started to be that, the better your forms the better your wushu.

Sha Guozheng from Yunnan, who had learned old school Tongbei Quan, created with his disciples and students a competition form of Tongbei which became a lower class form, including “yexing” step from Changquan, spins, jumps etc. By increasing performance complexities they blinded the spectator so much that all the champions in Tongbei those years were athletes from Yunnan, Guizhou and Sichuan [Yunnan neighbor provinces] and Liaoning was left standing on the side.

At the time some people asked Sifu whether we should also add those difficult moves, to get a better score, and Sifu said “When my Sifu taught me we did not do that!”.

Around 1984, A Japanese who had learned Shaolin style in northeast China early on by the name of Doshin So, brought some of his disciples to visit the actual Shaolin monastery in Songshan. At the time he made demonstrations in Shaolin, Zhengzhou and Beijing which included two men sparring and they were purely sanshou (free sparring) and in fact quite excellent. Then, after his shows, he asked to test skills in all of those three cities with local masters but nobody dared to respond. So Doshin So left and, back in Japan, told the press that real Shaolin arts (Shorinji) were now in Japan and lost in China.

This fact caused the Central Government to get mad with the Sport Committees whom they asked to immediately ‘excavate back’ the fighting skills of traditional wushu. Unfortunately, the Sport Committee discovered that wushu institutions and their athletes, including all coaches, had no idea about combat. So they went back among the population, looking for the few disciples of those early teachers first in Shanghai and then in Beijing.

By that time thou, even those famous pratictioners who got together to investigate after a few months declared that all of those things that were researched did not have any practical/martial value. I recall two famous Bagua masters who, because of issues inside their school generated by all these discussions, got to touch hands. At the end their “fight” was so ridiculous that a Government quadre gave up on the spot and left.

Later all of the other famous masters also left, one by one.

At the end, on suggestion of a few people, the Sport Committee went back to look for the few survivors who originally studied at Central Guoshu Academy in Nanjing, or at other similar early institutions all over China. These were all old retirees who in their youth had skills and could fight. Somehow because of political reasons, we discovered, all of these people who had practical skills were employed by the Nationalist Army so, after Liberation, they all had political issue to deal with.

Most of them replied to the matter at hand, saying that if one wants to look for answers to ‘fighting’ those should be found in ‘fighting’. So a renewal of ‘practical fighting’ championship was born at national level, and these old masters participated by watching the championships and suggesting that moves that were more practical, or had better results in the games, would have to be standardised. This was the embryonic phase of modern sanshou.

I recall that among the students of those old masters at the time there was Mr. Diao Yuntai, who did a lot for the spread of sanshou.

That early sanshou still saw wushu as its ancestor, still had some wushu content, there were palm strikes, elbow strikes, grabbing, leverages that slowly disappeared because of the changing rules and environment. Than it became all hooks and round kicks, sanshou players started to look down on traditional wushu, and so gradually everything begun to be divided into three groups: sanshou, forms and folk wushu.

Forms demonstrations were left with athleticism and dance, there is not much to add.

The contradictions of sanshou and traditional wushu are evident, both claim to superior practicality in combat. For sanshou it is obvious and traditionalists do admit it, but sanshou people believe traditional wushu is useless. Traditionalists not only claim practical skills but also deeper purposes, a stronger background: so why they cannot beat sanshou athletes?

Is that because they are just commoners, without so much time to spend on practice as a professional?

In my experience, if both a commoner and a professional practice two hours a day, after a year the commoner of traditional wushu is still no match for the sanshou athlete. Why is that? The traditionalist in his two hours a day will practice some basics, single moves, forms, all technical skills. What about the sanshou guy? Half an hour of technical moves, one hour of physical training, half an hour of sparring with a partner.

So where is the difference? Can the traditionalist beat the sanshou athlete?

Just look at us, discussing on the web, who is sparring everyday?
There are for sure traditionalists who practice everyday, but who spars everyday?

If we can spar once a week it’s already very much, and it is by wearing gloves and protections not bare handed!

On the other side sanshou people spar every other day, three times a week, which gets a to 150 times a year.
But for traditionalists if we spar 50 times a year it is already a lot, it's a 100 times difference in a year. So in terms of courage and experience there is a huge gap, how do you think you can fight … at the end traditionalists became ‘great’ only within their own circle but cannot set a foot outside of that comfort zone.

Quelle: https://www.facebook.com/wong.yuenmi...54368427082102, abgerufen 17.05.2017 10:10 Uhr

Grüße

Kanken

[WulongCha]

Hier auch noch mal ein ganz interessanter Artikel zu dem Buch:
https://taichinotebook.wordpress.com...illips-part-1/