so leid es mir tut, euch desillusionieren zu müssen, aber die beiden kata der kito ryu, aus denen kano seine koshiki-no-kata zusammensetzte, waren NIE dazu gedacht, "in rüstungen" geübt zu werden.
das hat u.a. sehr viel damit zu tun, daß in der kito ryu das yoroi kumi uchi (ringen in rüstungen) nicht teil des curriculums war.
ich wiederhole also, was ich schon auf seite 2 dieses threads schrieb und zitiere charles de creè, der als ausgewiesener experte auf diesem gebiet folgendes dazu sagt:
It is similar to kime-no-kata, where Kôdôkan-sensei will explain you attacks with the sword, and any noob will be impressed, carefully listening, and replicating it, 'thinking' if he does it exactly like said, he is doing it properly. It's a fallacy, and any, literally 'ANY' shihan in iaijutsu or kenjutsu will laugh you out of the dôjô. The issue simply is, and honestly, it is not me trying to be derogatory, that Kôdôkan-sensei on the average have zero experience in koryû. Do not forget that even in terms of jûdô the Kôdôkan was often laughed at by the Butokukai-sensei and considered to practice 'salon-jûdô'.Again, it is not my intent to ridicule the Kôdôkan, but I am providing some background to show an analogy.
With regard to yoroi, the Kôdôkan has zero experience.
It is also doubtful whether Kitô-ryû's "Yoroi kumi'uchi no kata" was indeed ever practised in yoroi.
With 'ever' I do not mean if anyone has ever done it over the past 350 years.
No doubt, they have.
What I mean is if 'ever' it was considered the standard to do so.
The 'proof' we have, in terms of pictures of taped footage of Koshiki-no-kata in yoroi, does not actually show yoroi or ô-yoroi, but shows kogusoku, or "light armor".
That is a huge difference.There are only a few writings that reflect in detail on the performance of Koshiki-no-kata in yoroi, such as notably from Kuhara-sensei.
There are several concerns which make it questionnable in how far it is feasible to perform Koshiki-no-kata in proper yoroi. For example, the ornaments on many of the kabuto helmets, would cause often pose problematic issues. They would be damaged, would damage the tatami and be dangerous for the opponent. Real yoroi, and hundreds of years ago there were no replica, has some sharp iron things sticking out that would make it as dangerous for the person wearing it as for his opponent.
Now, what I wanted to point out with my introduction and reference to the Kôdôkan when they talk about sword handling in kime-no-kata, who on earth has experience, any experience at the Kôdôkan in wearing yoroi ?
Nobody!
There is a gentleman, not Daigo-sensei, who suggests he does, but he does not. He has zero koryû training.Now, I am certainly not an expert in yoroi practice myself, but what I do in such cases when something is the subject of my research, is to take it to an expert.
In this case, I have amply discussed the issue with someone with expertise in it, who holds two menkyo kaiden and who has received proper training in his ryû which does practice in yoroi.
His reaction to the Kôdôkan gentleman posing in yoroi was exactly the same as the reaction I have experienced from koryû experts when watching sword handling in Kôdôkan's kime-no-kata: he laughed very hard.gute frage, nicht wahr?He also watched the videos taken from the seminar where the Kôdôkan gentleman and his verdict was prompt and brief, namely that the gentleman was completely clueless about how to properly wear a yoroi, let alone practice in it.
As with many things in martial art, you can only see certain things when you have the expertise.
He carefully explained to me some of the effects, also in terms of how to distribute the weight of the yoroi, and what happens if it is tied in such a way that that weight is not supported by the proper parts of the body.
The lay person would not see any difference, just like the noob would not realize the major problems in how many handle the sword in kime-no-kata, but for the expert it is literally in their face.
Point is, what are they really simulating in the Kôdôkan in terms of yoroi ?
ich denke, damit ist zu koshiki-no-kata alles gesagt.They are trying to simulate something they have never practised.
Do not underestimate this.
The menkyo kaiden-holder I discussed these things with is not a jûdôka, but I can assure you that when I showed him a couple of performances of Koshiki-no-kata, particularly by Westerners, his critique was spot-on.
In general, he laughed pointing out how clueless they were in walking.
Westerners don't know how to walk. it is not even a matter of mechanics and trajectory of the kata, it is already the walking itself that is a problem.
They have never been trained to walk from the hara, they don't know where to put their hips, just like they do not know what to do with their hips during sword handling in kime-no-kata.
In fact there are many who will actually lift their hips when executing a shomen. This is not just some mistake, but a reflection that one is completely and utterly clueless about what one is doing.
As I have told many times our problem is that teachers and judges no longer understand this and have replaced the essence of many things in kata with mechanics because that is all they know about the kata.
die inhalte dieser kata sind nicht mehr bekannt, denn zu den bloßen bewegungen der beiden ursprungs-kata aus der kito ryu FEHLEN die mündlichen unterweisungen (okuden), und ohne diese hat man nur noch eine tanzeinlage.
klar kann man spekulieren, was die bewegungen bedeuten, aber man wird es nie wirklich wissen.
trainiert man diese kata dennoch, hat man reenactment, mehr nicht.
cargo-kult.
So, to go back to your question, it is doubted that Koshiki-no-kata was really practised in full yoroi, but it certainly was in kogusoku.
During standard training certainly in the 19th century one did however not wear kogusoku either.
Likely one did not in the 17th century either, one of the reasons being that already then Kitô-ryû had strongly evolved into a spiritual school.
Kitô-ryû as a school has had to endure some heavy fire and critique in the early 18th century, mainly that some claimed it was detached from reality and not practical at all, with an overemphasis on philosophy and things not directly useful in combat.
This too suggests that it is unlikely that they then would be practising in actual combat gear.Now, in terms of people imagining whatever, when they are practising, ask anyone to imagine they are doing judo when they have never done.
What do you get ?
You know as well as I, you will get someone making fake Bruce Lee-like movements while shouting "Wu-ha".
Similarly, imaginging you are wearing yoroi when you have never worn one, what do you get ?
A caricature.That being said, it is important to realize that saying so is not at all trying to ridicule people. They have little choice, also.
Even if they would by an antique yoroi their size and try it on, it would hardly be better.
After all, putting on a yoroi and learning how to properly move in it, is again a serious learning process which you need to accomplish under an expert teacher.
They still exist, but unless you actually take the time and effort to travel and find one, that option is remote.However, you also have to consider one other thing. Kôdôkan jûdô is not Kitô-ryû kumi'uchi.
That is to say, in Kitô-ryû jûjutsu there is a bunch of other things which are Kitô-ryû jûjutsu.
Not so in Kôdôkan jûdô, although other things find an origin in Kitô-ryû jûjutsu.
Kanô selected the kata for Kôdôkan jûdô with specific things in mind as to why it was important to have this kata in Kôdôkan jûdô.
His idea certainly was not that jûdôka should perform it in yoroi or even kogusoku.
As any kata, the kata is to improve your own jûdô, and you do so wearing a jûdôgi.
However, it is acceptable on occasion during a formal demonstration for an audience (which thus is different than what the purpose of kata really is) to wear kogusoku.
In learning that what Kanô aimed to convey with maintainin this kata in Kôdôkan jûdô pretending to throw has no place.
The image of yoroi is also frequently used to make it clear to people that the reihô is somewhat different.
But the effect we now see is a complete caricature that has nothing to do with wearing a yoroi.
What we now see is people suddenly falling forward on their hands. Why ? Because that is what they have seen some others do, and from their they assume that is what is done when wearing a yoroi, which ... of course they have never worn.
To put it simple, you don't bow that way when wearing a yoroi the way most people you see in those YouTube clips bow when they show their interpretation of Koshiki-no-kata.
But this is how the knowledge is transferred, likely because it is easier than to travel to Japan, try and get a shokai to a Yagyû Shingan-ryû sensei and actually ask him to teach you how to properly wear a yoroi and perform reihô when wearing one.