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Thema: Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate

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    Standard Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate

    Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate

    One instructor who has tasted the best of both Bruce Lee worlds says
    forget about what is or what isn't: just take the best of each and
    become a great martial artist.

    Originally Printed in the 25th Anniversary Collector's Issue of
    Bruce Lee Magazine. Written by Burton Richardson



    Original vs. Concepts - Which is the better approach?

    This question has been looked at over and over again the last few
    years without much progress. I believe that just as in any other
    area of art, sports, or technology, we can go beyond the old way of
    thinking and find a better way. For clarity, let's first take a look
    at what the "original JKD" people think, at what the "JKD" concepts"
    people think, and what the two camps think of each other.

    Original JKD is comprised of those things that Bruce Lee actually
    did himself, his techniques, his training methods, and so on. A
    common phrase from this camp is, "If Bruce didn't do it, it's not
    JKD." They tend to have a healthy reverence for Lee and everything
    that he accomplished. They have great confidence in the art that Lee
    founded, and have considerable pride in teaching the methods
    developed by the founder. They believe in practicing the basics of
    Jun Fan jeet Kune do with diligence to hone the skills of the
    artists.

    Many in this camp look at the concepts people as a group of wayward
    martial artists who think that accumulation is the key to
    proficiency. They think that concepts people will practice any art
    regardless of whether or not it is useful, and that most concepts
    people think, "The more techniques I know the better I must be."

    Jeet Kune do concepts practitioners believe the art Sigung Lee
    passed on is good, but there is much more to learn in the martial
    arts realm. Concepts people think that by studying different arts, a
    wider scope of understanding will be gained, and the student will be
    better off in the long run. Knowing more techniques is like having
    extra insurance in case you end up I a bad situation. They also have
    a strong reverence for Bruce Lee, but they realize that he was only
    able to study a small portion of the arts that are available today.
    They also believe that a martial artist should be well-rounded in
    his approach, and the only way to accomplish this is to study a wide
    variety of arts.


    Who's Right? Who's Wrong?

    Many concepts people think the "original" practitioners are closed-
    minded, and limited in their martial options. Some concepts people
    also think that since they practice Jun Fan jeet Kune do themselves,
    it only makes sense that their approach better prepares an
    individual for a combative situation. If a concepts person knows the
    same things as an original person, plus knows other arts too, then
    the concepts person has the advantage.

    Obviously, I am making wide generalizations here, and every
    individual practitioner is different, but this is some of the
    prevalent thinking on both sides of the issue. What we all want to
    know is, which side is right? Which approach is better? Actually, I
    don't think that is the question. I think what most of us really
    want to know is, "What should I do to become the best martial artist
    that I can become?" Isn't this the pertinent question? We want to
    know if OJKD is better that JKDC to be sure that we are practicing
    the best was that we can. From a fighter's point of view, how to
    become the best of oneself is the only question that pertains to
    martial arts training. IT doesn't matter if it is OJKD or JKDC as
    long as we become better martial artists.

    I have been very, very fortunate to have studied with Sifu Dan
    Inosanto over the last 18 years. He is the best of all worlds in the
    martial arts because he is a great teacher, technician, and training
    in various arts under many different teachers. His teaching also is
    on a very high level, because he encourages each student to find his
    way. He will supply everything a person could need to go into any
    aspect of the martial arts. He also encourages his students to study
    with other instructors so they student will have different
    perspectives on the arts. He encouraged me as I went down one
    martial path, and he now encourages me since I have changed the
    direction of my training and teaching.

    For years I taught all aspects of various arts, from forms to
    intricate techniques to the basic fighting drills. My Los Angeles
    students enjoyed the training, as did my seminar students. As time
    went on I entered various full-contact competitions, with and
    without weapons, I began to reexamine my teaching approach. I
    finally realized what my problem was- I didn't have a goal for my
    training and teaching! I needed a goal to guide my training in a
    particular direction, but I had to first decide what that direction
    would be. I decided the most important aspect of the martial arts,
    that thing that makes it martial arts, is to be able to defend
    yourself in a life-threatening situation. I wrote out a goal for
    myself and my students, and used it to guide my research, training
    and teaching. It has shaped my expression of jeet Kune do. Here is
    the goal. I hope you find it useful.


    Establish A Goal

    "You must be able to apply your art under extreme pressure, in all
    ranges, with or without weapons, against one or more, armed or
    unarmed, highly skilled aggressive opponents, in a variety of
    environments."

    This is the goal of the training and it guides me and keeps me on
    track. I believe the underlying theme of jeet Kune do that makes it
    unique is that the art must work on the street. Take a look at the
    components of the goal and see if they make sense to you and your
    training.

    To be able to handle such a situation, you must be able to actually
    apply your art. There is a big difference between looking good in
    class and going for it in the street. In class you may like to work
    with someone who has good energy, but in the street an attacker is
    going to have the worst energy you can possible imagine. Instead of
    giving you "good energy", he is going to try his best to foul up
    anything you try. Our training must prepare us to deal with that
    sort of frantic, hostile energy. The techniques you use must be
    simple, effective techniques that have been proven to work under
    adverse circumstances. Remember, knowledge is not power, that
    ability to apply your knowledge is power.

    To become a powerful martial artist you must be able to apply your
    art. You must be able to handle the pressure of an aggressive
    attack. If your training doesn't include dealing with heavy
    attacking pressure, how do you expect yourself to automatically
    adjust to high-pressure situation in the street? Be sure you
    included drills in your training where you feel your partner
    pressuring you, or create a training situation where you have to
    deal with the nervousness that can hinder your performance.

    You must be able to fight in all ranges of combat. Nobody can
    predict which range a street fight will start in, or where it will
    end up. You must be functional in all of the ranges, or after years
    of training you may end up in a position that you are unfamiliar
    with. You should be proficient in kicking range, hand range,
    trapping range you should be able to throw an opponent, and you must
    be able to fight on the ground. You may be a great stand-up fighter,
    but what happens if you get tackled from behind by an opponent you
    didn't see? How about a grappler who has to face more that one
    opponent? If you want to have a fighting chance on the street, you
    must be functional in all of the ranges.

    Weaponry is a must as well. Once o the most natural things for an
    irate human being to do is to pick something up and use it as a
    weapon. If you want to understand how to defend against a weapon,
    you should learn how to fight with a weapon. You should understand
    the difference between fighting with and edge weapon and fighting
    with a blunt impact weapon. If you know the weak points in your
    attack with the weapon and you are used to the motion of the stick
    or knife, you will have a much better chance of surviving an armed
    attack. If the situation is really bad, you may need to improvise a
    weapon to save your on skin.

    Have you practiced against multiple opponents? Have you seen a mass
    attack occur? If not, you better get to work. Mass attacks are a
    common occurrence. You could be minding your own business when a
    group of youngsters with nothing better to do decide that you are to
    be the outlet for their rage. Multiple opponents are very difficult
    to deal with, but you should at least practice the tactics that
    could allow you to run to safety. Even in your one-on-one training,
    you should factor in the chance that the guy your are fighting may
    have friends on the way. This is why staying on your feet is
    important. If his friends come around the corner, you can run. When
    you grapple, you should try to choose positions that are easy to run
    away from. If you are tangled up with an opponent, he can hold you
    until his friend arrives to introduce his boot to your brain. Not
    good. Always factor fighting against more than on opponent into your
    training.


    Expect The Worst

    I always want to assume that any opponent I or a student of mine
    faces is highly skilled in all of the ranges. IF you assume that the
    person knows nothing, what happens if you go to the ground and find
    out that he is a wrestling champ> You could make a careless mistake
    and be finished. Much better to assume that the person is highly
    skilled, do you very best, and win easily if the opponent isn't
    skilled. The best way to avoid underestimating an opponent is to
    assume that he is very good.

    There are environmental considerations to take into account also.
    Can you fight in the dark? Can you function when it is very noisy,
    like in a nightclub. How about when the ground is slippery, or on a
    hill, or in the snow, or in the water, or when you have lots of
    clothing on, or when you are in a parking lot, or when you are
    sitting in your car? You should try training in different
    environments so you can more easily adapt to a situation in the real
    world when conditions are less that optimal. So know that the goal
    is, but what do we need to become functional? WE must have sound
    techniques and employ proper training methods.

    There are millions of possible techniques, but far fewer moves that
    are probable to work against a highly skilled, aggressive opponent,
    so where should we draw our base techniques from? I choose most of
    mine from full-contact combat sports. Muay Thai, Valé tudo, boxing
    and other combat sports put skilled competitors together to go
    nearly all-out. They don't talk and theorize about fighting, they go
    out and do it. You will see certain techniques being used over and
    over again because they work well. I use these techniques, then add
    all the foul tactics such as eye and groin strikes that are illegal
    in the ring but perfectly acceptable in the street. The techniques
    must be simple, and practical and must be practiced repeatedly to
    become functional.

    Most of the techniques I teach are those I have pulled off under
    pressure, or techniques, which I know have been performed by someone
    else under pressure. I want to teach a move that I believe is
    practical, but I don't know of anyone actually doing it, I will tell
    my students just that. This way I am honest with my teaching and I
    feel good about staying true to my goal.

    I take most of the basic training methods from combat sports. You
    must have an efficient way of practicing your techniques that
    simulate the combat conditions while keeping a margin of safety. If
    you get hurt during training you are defeating the whole purpose of
    martial arts training. You learn martial arts so that you can stay
    healthy, so safety in training is a must. Training for combat sports
    is designed to win the event and since our "event" is a streetfight
    with no rules, we must alter drills to fit our needs. The main goal
    in training is to build extremely strong basics in each range,
    because the fighter with the strongest basics usually wins the bout.


    Unlimited Potential

    This is my expression of jeet Kune do. I call my group Jeet Kune Do
    Unlimited because I don't want any of my students to become limited
    in our thought process, and start to think that we have the "best"
    way or the "only" way. I call what we do high-performance martial
    arts because that is what it should be; martial arts that you can
    perform at a high level of proficiency. Some people will like it.
    Others will hate it, but that doesn't matter. The most important
    thing is to be constantly improving.

    I am happy with where the training is now, but I know it will get
    better in the future as I and my research team of instructors
    experience more training methods from different arts, cultures, and
    fighters. I want to be the best I can be, and I want to help my
    students and friends to do the same. Bruce Lee gave us a great
    example by showing us what happens when a person sets a goal and
    works on that goal with zeal.

    Forget about whether "this" art is better than "that" art. Set your
    goal, make sure it feels right to you. Then get to work on being the
    best that you can be.

    - End.

    Grüsse
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  2. #2
    matze83 Gast

    Standard

    Zitat Zitat von jkdberlin
    Original Vs. Concepts: The Great Jeet Kune Do Debate


    Forget about whether "this" art is better than "that" art. Set your
    goal, make sure it feels right to you. Then get to work on being the
    best that you can be.


    WEISE GESPROCHEN!!

  3. #3
    QQQQ Gast

    Standard

    Vor langer Zeit gab Tim Tackett auf Video ähnliches und anderes von sich.

  4. #4
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    Sehr informativer Beitrag

    Grüsse
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  5. #5
    QQQQ Gast

    Standard

    Weiss dein Freiseur davon?
    Geändert von QQQQ (22-02-2005 um 03:54 Uhr)

  6. #6
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    Zitat Zitat von QQQQ
    Weiss dein Freiseur davon?
    Was oder wen du auch immer damit meinen magst...

    Grüsse
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  7. #7
    Mandrake Gast

    Standard

    Ich finds irgendwie interressant wie die gleichen Probleme innerhalb einer KK und Ausserhalb einer KK immer wieder auftreten, sich mit der zeit verscheiben und nach einiger zeit wieder aufkommen, nur das man sich komischer weise auf der anderen Seite des Schlachtfeldes wieder findet.

    Ok, ich versuch mal zu erklären was ich meine, und entschuldige mich im Voraus für veralgemeinerungen und Fehler...

    Bruce Lee trägt seine 'neuen' Ideen in die welt Hinaus und wird grundsätzlich von den Traditionelleren KK's wegen den unortodoxen, untraditionellen sichtweisen und Methoden kritisiert. Irgendwann etabliert sich Bruce mit JKD, nach seinem Tod gibt es auf einmal Concepts. Auf einmal findet sich JKD auf der seite der Traditionalisten wieder

    Im Capoeira gab es etwas ähnliches mit den 2 Hauptstielen... Heutzutage gibt es allerdings auch schon neuere varianten mit denen das gleiche Spiel wieder beginnt.

    Irgendwie scheint es ein ziemlich zentraler Konflikt in den KK's zu sein, wie und wann sie verändert werden soll. Ich fands als aussenstehender nur recht interressant das sogar in KK's die die Veränderung quasi in der Grundphilosphie haben genau das gleiche problem haben

  8. #8
    QQQQ Gast

    Standard

    Bruce Lee trägt seine 'neuen' Ideen in die welt Hinaus und wird grundsätzlich von den Traditionelleren KK's wegen den unortodoxen, untraditionellen sichtweisen und Methoden kritisiert. Irgendwann etabliert sich Bruce mit JKD, nach seinem Tod gibt es auf einmal Concepts. Auf einmal findet sich JKD auf der seite der Traditionalisten wieder

    Nun gut, the show must go on, und dass am besten upgraded.

    Spass beiseite, auch auf die Gefahr hin gelyncht zu werden, gebe ich folgendes zum Besten.


    Um JKD in seiner ursprünglichen Form zu erhalten, geschweige den zu etablieren, wäre/ist das Engagement der zwei, drei Leute keineswegs ausreichend.

    Ohne die Conceptologen wäre JKD vermutlich verschwunden. Selbst heute kommen die Conceptskritiker nicht aus dem Hintern.

    Selbst wenn es für einige nach Haarspalterei klingt.
    Klarzustellen ist, dass man zwischen Bruce Lee´s Unterrichtsstoff von der Seattle-Privatgruppe, dem des Seattle JFGF-Instituts, dem der Oakland- und LA Chinatown-Schulen und dem LA Backyard-JKD unterscheiden muss, welches Bruce beispielsweise im Einzelunterricht gelehrt hat. Da die Methode von Bruce Lee bis zuletzt so sehr verfeinert wurde, dass jeder die Unterschiede schon bei Seminaren erkennen und erfahren kann.

    Bei allem Respekt, hat sich keiner die Frage gestellt warum die Concept Lehrer in den "Unterdisziplinen", also eigentlich in anderen Methoden als JKD trainineren müssen, um sich wiederum im JKD weiterzuentwickeln.

    Im Conceptslager kommt es nicht selten vor dass ergänzend Boxen, WC, MT usw. traininert wird um es quasi Bruce`s Entwicklung des Systems gleichzutun, ein neues JKD zu entwickeln, das "personal" concept.

    Aber wenn JKD trainiert würde, bräuchte es kein doppelgemoppel.

    Das JKD baut die Fähigkeiten des einzelnen mit einem eigenständigen Box- und Trappingsystem auf. Darauf bezieht sich auch Tommy Carruthers, wenn er von dutzenden Box-Sparringseinheiten berichtet und zufügt, es sei eben doch kein Boxen.

    Solange die menschliche Anatomie unverändert bleibt, verstehe ich die ständige Weiterentwicklung von JKD doch nicht als ewige Methode der Substitution. Sondern als die Verbesserung der Attribute, der Ökonomie, des Timings, der Kraft, der Geschwindigkeit usw. Ich schärfe meine Sinne und meine Waffen.



    Noch eins. Man sollte bei aller Loyalität zu eigenen JKD Linie(n) und deren Graduierungen nicht vergessen, dass eventuell ein Herb Jackson, ein Mito Uyehara (4 Teiler Bruce Lee Fighting Method) und Ted Wong möglicherweise mehr von dem bisschen JKD Know-How dass es eigentlich gibt vergessen haben, als andere glauben zu wissen.

    Fazit: Bei Grappling und Waffen ist die Bezeichnung Concepts annehmbar.



  9. #9
    Grandizer Gast

    Standard

    Totaler Schwachsinn was der Autor schreibt. So was wie ein "Original JKD" gibt's gar nicht. Bruce Lee selbst sagte, sollte JKD sich jemals zu einem Stil mausern, soll man's aus dem Fenster werfen.
    JKD ist und bleibt ein Konzept, das für jeden Kampfkünstler jeder Stilrichtung anwendbar ist.
    Was Bruce gelehrt hat kann man als Jun Fan Gung Fu bezeichnen.

  10. #10
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    Wow, du musst dich ja total auskennen, wenn du jemanden wie Burton Richardson als schwachsinnig bezeichnest.
    Nun denn, als "Original JKD" bezeichnet man genau das, was von BL in den Jahren 1958 bis 1973 trainiert wurde. Wieso sollte es das nicht geben?

    Grüsse
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  11. #11
    Grandizer Gast

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    Sag ich ja, das ist was man "Jun Fan Gung Fu" nennt. Der Autor hat dafür die Bezeichnung "Original JKD" verwendet. Kann sein, dass die die sich streng an dem JFGF halten es "Original JKD" nennen, aber das ist kein Grund für den Autor es auch so zu nennen, weil die die es OJKD nennen wahrlich keine Ahnung haben, da Bruce selbst nicht wollte, dass JKD ein Stil wird, und die tun genau das Gegenteil.

  12. #12
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    "Original JKD" ist ein in der Zwischenzeit feststehender, aktzeptierter Begriff. Der Autor hat genau den richtigen Begriff gewählt.

    "weil die die es OJKD nennen wahrlich keine Ahnung haben"
    Auch hier hoffe ich, dass du weisst, wen du da alles mit beleidigst. Unter anderem eine ganze Menge Originalschüler von Bruce Lee. Du hast also mehr Ahnung als die Leute, die tatsächlich dabei waren und das seit über 30 Jahren trainieren...

    Grüsse
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  13. #13
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    Btw, der da rechts steht, neben Guro Dan Inosanto, ist übrigens der Author. Full-Instructor unter Guro Dan...

    Grüsse
    Angehängte Grafiken Angehängte Grafiken
    Frank Burczynski

    HILTI BJJ Berlin
    https://www.hiltibjj.de


    http://www.jkdberlin.de

  14. #14
    Grandizer Gast

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    Also ich öffne das JKD-Buch und was lese ich als erstes? "This book is dedicated to the free, creative martial artist".
    Wo ist die Freiheit und die Kreativität wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?
    Bruce sagte immer "Express yourself". Wo gibt's Raum für mich mich auszudrücken wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?
    "Original JKD" zu sagen ist zu sagen, "Bruce hat einen Stil erfunden, und diesen Stil üben wir".
    JKD ist kein Stil, und Bruce hat nie behauptet, einen erfunden zu haben, also kann es keinen OJKD geben.
    Geändert von Grandizer (01-03-2005 um 16:20 Uhr)

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    @Frank&Grandizer:
    DANKE für eure Diskussion(en)!
    Hab mich selten so vor dem Rechner amüsiert und auf eine Fortsetzung gehofft...

    Kurz mal meine 2ct:

    Zitat Zitat von Grandizer
    "Original JKD" zu sagen ist zu sagen, "Bruce hat einen Stil erfunden, und diesen Stil üben wir".
    Warum???
    OJKD bedeutet das zu trainieren, was B.Lee zu Lebzeiten unterrichtet hat - und das bedeutet nicht "nur" Techniken sondern ebenso Konzepte, Prinzipien und Philosophien - diese Lehren (Technik UND Theorie) Bilden für jeden die Basis seiner persönlichen Entwicklung.


    Zitat Zitat von Grandizer
    Wo ist die Freiheit und die Kreativität wenn ich mich haargenau an dem halte, was Bruce tatsächlich gelehrt hat?
    Nach dieser Aussage dürfte ich mich als Kampfsportler/Künster also gerade NICHT entwickeln und frei entfalten - denn wenn ich das tue würde ich mich ja genau an das halten was er gelehrt hat...und das darf ich ja nicht

    Vieleicht solltest du einfach mal aufhören dich in Büchern und Artikeln zu verrenen und deine eigenen Interpretationen von JKD als die allumfassende Wahrheit anzusehen (und vor allem zu verbreiten) und dir von erfahrenen Leuten in der Szene ZEIGEN lassen was JKD ist und was es bedeutet.
    Vieleicht siehst du dann irgendwann das OJKD nicht nur eine "Kopie" der Techniken und JKDC mehr als nur die Philosophie "tu was du willst" ist...

    Gruss

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