Meinungen zu Hock Hochheim

[Michael Kann]

Hallo Kampfkunstfreunde,

mich würde Eure Meinung zu Hock Hochheim interessieren. Sprich, was haltet Ihr von seinen Programmen, seinen Techniken, seinen Erklärungen usw. usf.

Vielen Dank im voraus!

Gruß
Mike

[Franz]

[jkdberlin]

das meiste:

manches aber auch:

und einiges:

Grüsse

[Michael Kann]

Mann seit Ihr heute drauf

Bitte fast Eure Meinung in WORTE!

Gruß
Mike

[jkdberlin]

Dabei fand ich sagen die Smileys alles viel besser aus als meine Worte, man du bist ja nervig...

Okay:
Ich habe ein zwei Tage Seminar mit ihm erlebt. 3/4 des Seminars sah ich Sachen, die andere Instructoren teilweise bedeutend besser rüberbringen. Manches würde ich sogar für gefährlich bis kaum möglich einordnen. Anderes war sehr okay. Das ganze ist eher was für den Zivilisten, Polizisten und Soldaten, der kein Filipino Martial Arts Training hat. Allerdings sehr durchstrukturiert, organisiert und einfach zu lernen/zu vermitteln. Teilweise eine Art Crashkurs in Abwehr von Schlagwaffen und Stich/Schneidwaffen.

1/4 des Seminars fand ich sehr gut! Das passte sogar richtig gut in mein Training und war teilweise gut weitergedacht! Hat mir echt gefallen!

Bei dem Seminar bekam der eine oder andere sogar eine Menge Papier und ist jetzt zertifizierte Vertreter

Grüsse

[Bruce1962]

Kenn von Hock Hochheim bisher leider nur kurze Texte, sowie einige Bildreihen und Aussagen aus zweiter Hand.
Das reicht vermutlich nicht um sich ein Urteil zu bilden.
Die Texte fand ich zum größten Teil OK.
Aber zumindest eine der gezeigten Techniken auf den Bildserien (Unterlaufen des Messerarmes), halte ich für äußerst gefährlich und kaum durchführbar.

[klauszik]

Hat der Kerl denn nen Webauftritt?

[Franz]

Hier ist sie :

http://www.hockscqc.com/

[Mr.Fister]

gab ne fette diskussion im battlefield forum dazu, weil man sich dazu registrieren muss, hab ichs kopiert


Battlefield Forum
> Combatives Discussion
> Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?

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pegomez
Member
(4/20/03 10:44 pm)
Reply Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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www.hockscqc.com

He seems to advertise a lot and some people seem very impressed with his material, but, I just don't see it. I've sat through three or four of his tapes and been woefully unimpressed. I've read through his CQC Group Training Mission One book and that just confirmed what I saw in his videos.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Gomez



smatchet
Member
(5/10/03 4:05 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Gomez.
hello being a knife collector, commando dagger, applegate/fairbairn dagger, and the smatchet, got me into knife fighting, or defensive knife combat. I dont have any of hochs video's but have all his books, they are very good, loads of info, but thats it, maybe too much info to take in.
if you want to practice a martial art, then yes they are good.
but if you just need to stab someone, well anyone can do that. do you really need all that flowing stuff.
was practising filipino knife and stick, up until last year, the instructor had never stabbed anyone, but he had experience on night club doors, but his junior instructors, were showing the class how to use stick and knife, and these guy's were a joke!
had never heard of Don pentacost, Col. Applegate, or Fairbairn /Sykes.
my brother has stabbed people and has been stabbed,
when I asked the instructor, can my brother join he club, and told him he had been in trouble with the law, and had stabbed someone, he said oh, no we dont want people like that here we teach knife etc, !
what a joke! anyway the bulk of the training was jkd far too much to take in, so I am back to training at home for now.
so getting back to hoch, his books etc, are good but far too much stuff, just not needed.
but I am no expert, so what do I know.!


Reactor
Member
(5/13/03 8:47 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Hello, PEGomez.

How about posting a mini-review of the tapes you viewed, for the benefit of those of us who, like you, have heard or read about Hochheim's tapes, but are unsure as to whether they are worth spending for. Hope you can spare the time. Thanks.

pegomez
Member
(5/16/03 2:39 pm)
Reply Hochheim Tape Review
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Just saw Reactor's post today. I'll try and dig up the Hockheim stuff that I've got and see what I can do, no promises on the quickness of it though.

Gomez

szorn1
Member
(6/15/03 5:06 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Having cross-trained in over a dozen different systems/styles and researching over a few hundred more via books and videos (including WWII based material) I attended one of Hock's seminars with an open mind. In short, it was THE best thing I have ever done. Hock offers one of the most comprehensive curriculums of it's kind without being too complex like a martial arts system. Hock teaches survival tactics rarely taught in martial arts and only occasionally taught in other "reality" systems, tactics need to survive life-or-death altercations. Hock seamlessly integrates the empty-hand material with the knife, gun, baton, and improvised weapons.

It should be pointed out that NO style or system can be effectively evaluated just by watching their videos or reading their books. Those things only represent a solid introduction into the material. It should also be taken into considration that good instructors tend to evolve over the years. Hock's courses have been modified quite a bit over the past couple of years, and the videos no longer truely represent what he is doing. The only way to get a solid evaluation of any instructor is to attend a present day seminar, and use the videos and books for what they are- the author's representation at the time they were published.

Steve

V42
Moderator
(6/15/03 6:41 pm)
Reply
Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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BTW, Steve, aren't you one of Hock's head instructors?

Well, I have avoided commenting on this for a while, but . . .

Quote:
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It should be pointed out that NO style or system can be effectively evaluated just by watching their videos or reading their books.
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Sorry, but that sounds like an excuse given by someone who isn't happy with how their videos and system is received.

You can tell a lot from videos. And from what I have seen of Hock's stuff, I think it is vastly overblown with lots of fluff and overcomplicated to the point of being questonable to pull off in real life.

Hock calls his stuff Combatives, jumping onto the reality fighting bandwagon, when it is more like JKD in cammos, with flow drills, trapping and all of that stuff.

As Kelly McCann (AKA Jim Grover) says, "Martial arts is something you do with someone. Combatives is something you do to someone or on someone. " What do you see often on Hock's tapes? Flow drills that you do with someone.

Hock has slammed WWII combatives several times, as well as making disparaging remarks about Fairbairn and Sykes in an interview on Realfighting,com where he said:

"Here in the west, many are all caught up on the Sykes-Fairbairn military connection to combatives, when really, every significant nation has premiere combatives tacticians as good or possible smarter and better. I also like to remind these followers that Sykes-Fairbairn started out as COPS, not soldiers!"

This coming from a man who has dozens of tapes and a huge program, including much what I consider to be fluff and many techniques that I have doubts the average person could make work in a real life violent situation. Strange that Hock criticizes something like WWII combatives, when there really aren't that many people out there practicing it or teaching it. I think Hock may perceive a threat to his bottom line - $$$.

Also, it shows Hock's lack of knowledge about Fairbairn and Sykes, as Fairbairn served in the Royal Marines before joining the Shanghai Municipal Police, and Sykes served in WWI.

In a comment to some magazine, Hock seems to regard many things to be too simple to work in real life, something like, "what are they going to do when their chops fail?" This shows a questionable understanding of adrenal stress and what most people can achieve when faced with real life violence. If you cannot make something simple work you probably are not going to pull off something complex.

Hock's stuff does look better than most traditional martial arts, but when he calls his stuff combatives, he runs into a big problem. His program has way too much stuff, and too much complex stuff for it to be rightfully called combatives, and some of his comments about WWII style combatives is downright insulting to the true WWII style instructors and practitioners out there.

Hock's got loads of levels and such. Well if you go to Crucible, Kelly McCann's training center, as I have, there is no advanced course! McCann tells you that now you have learned the stuff that you need to survive and it is up to you to go out and practice and get proficient with it. This goes for their shooting and unarmed ciriculum. You can certainly repeat the course if you feel it will help you better master the stuff, but it's a relatively small ciriculum.

McCann's motto is "less is more," believing it is better to have less techniques that are easier to learn so that you spend more time practicing a much smaller body of techniques.

Under stress Hick's Law applies. This means the more options that you have, the longer it takes for you to select a response when you may not have time to begin with.

If you enjoy Hock and feel you are getting something out of it, that's great. I don't doubt that you will gain some valuable skills.

But I have problems with him calling his stuff combatives, and when he starts making desparaging remarks about true combatives people, he opens himself up.



vfortytwoATyahoo.com

to send email replace the AT in the above address with the @ symbol

Edited by: V42 at: 6/15/03 8:13 pm

Francisp
Member
(6/15/03 9:07 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Hocks a zero. The comments about Fairbairn and Sykes alone prove that. What an asshole.

azleeagle
Member
(6/15/03 9:20 pm)
Reply Hoch's stuff
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i've gotten rid of most of my Hoch stuff(books, videos)..it was over done crap...with his statement on Fairbairns and Sykes as being just cops...hell Hoch was a Denton city Cop for years....if i'm right Hoch was a Gary Dill student years ago..and it shows


kirk

szorn1
Member
(6/15/03 9:37 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Actually I wouldn't call myself a head instructor, but I am an instructor for Hock's courses as well as some of my own courses which most "reality" systems (including WWII systems) tend to neglect such as child abduction prevention, rape prevention, & crime prevention.

Sorry, but sounds like an excuse

No excuses here. Sounds like some of your theories are excuses for not having what it takes to actually check out an instructor yourself rather than take pop-shots at him over the net.

You can tell alot from videos

I tend to disagree but if we go with that theory then some of the WWII systems lack any real skill development or the ability to adapt under stress. They have extreme tunnel-vision and teach very basic techniques, which I agree are solid techniques, but they offer no skill-developing tactics which will help a person deal with counters to their techniques. As an example, an axe-hand can be reflexively blocked by even the most inexperienced attacker on the street. From what I have seen of the videos, the instructors don't teach what to do then. Not to mention that most of the WWII Combatives videos are lacking in some areas. As an example, the only ones to cover ground combatives have derived the material from Brazilian Jujitsu, which was not taught during WWII. This proves my point that it's ignorant to base an opinion on videos alone.

If you had ever attended a seminar with Hock you would know that he discusses adrenal response and it's relation to combat. In fact, from my understanding he will be adding some separate Model Mugging type of programs to a few of his seminars, specifically for the women. I find it strange that he would do such as thing, if he indeed did negelect the "adrenal response" theories as you claim.

Hock as slammed WWII combatives several times.

Actually, I think that he just placed things in proper perspective. He never said anything negative about the material being taught, so I wouldn't call it a slam. In fact, he teaches the chin jab, rear-leg takedown, and other techniques commonly seen in WWII combatives. Also, if he is so against WWII combatives and Fairbairn as you claim, why would he sell the vintage (Fairbairn) OSS training footage video on his website?

Simply put, I think this points out that the WWII Combatives practitioners are no different than "traditional" martial artists. Both believe that they teach the superior "arts", both believe they have all of the answers, both believe that if their "grandmaster" didn't teach a technique or tactic then it must not be effective, and both believe that their students shouldn't train with anyone outside their school. Politics belong in the government not in the world of "reality" self-defense and close quarter combat. Either you are helping the cause by teaching people to survive or you are hurting the cause by promoting "systems" over survival. Truth is, it shouldn't matter where a technique or tactic comes from and it shouldn't matter who's flag an instructor waves as long as they are helping the cause.

I find it funny that you invested so much time on these forums slamming others rather than promoting unity in the cause.
Instructors are ment to be leaders and leaders need to lead by example.I find this to be a weak example.

Steve


pegomez
Member
(6/15/03 11:01 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Hmm, OK. I've generally found that if someone moves like a clod on video, they will move like a clod in real life. If someone executes a technique against a compliant bad guy on video, they could execute the same technique against the same compliant bad guy in real life. That doesn't make the technique valid. It simply means that the same artificial situation was set up twice.

Going through Hochheim's module one book, it is prefusely illustrated with horribly inept technique. His sections on gunhandling and firearms usage are particularly offensive. Anyone ever heard of transitioning from a pistol to a rifle by letting the pistol hang from the trigger guard (with the trigger finger stuck through to access the rifle trigger guard)?

I still haven't dug up the videos to review them, sorry those that are waiting. I'll get around to it one of these days.

Gomez

KaliStu
Member
(6/15/03 11:29 pm)
Reply Fairbairn?
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Hi Steve,

Please don't make this personal, you will just piss the mods off and they will ban you.

Lets just talk technique and debate in a rational fashion.

When you say that the FS system doesn't teach followups to a failed axehand, I must strongly disagree.

In the Fairbairn system, a failed attack is followed by another attack. If a guarding arm has to be attacked directly to get a hit, it is. The whole point of opening with the palm down axehand is that it allows you either to hit the other guy or batter down his defence whilst keeping yourself relatively well guarded. (Think Dracula I say to those I train with)

So there IS a contingency for a attack failing....it is to keep attacking and keep pressing forwards.

There is no groundfighting in the Fairbairn system. He held a dan grading in the Kokodan Judo system....So did many of the other big names. There are systems of WWII combatives that include more groundfighting however these were not as widely adopted. What does this tell us?

This an important point that most people don't get about WWII combatives training.

FAS Combatives training is NOT really designed for fighting. It is for assaulting. Either you counterattack when someone assaults you or you assault someone else preemptively.

There is no give or take. There is no feeling out your opponent, there is no time for style analysis. Simple Gross Motor movements delivered to the larger vital points of the body are all you are going to be able to access in a real surprise assault, just ask the Model Mugging/RMCAT type folks.

Folks think that because they are involved in hard core contact sparring that they will able to pull off complex techniques in a fight. In most cases, I believe they are wrong. Being attacked by surprise and preparing yourself for a matchfight are not the same thing. A Matchfight allows you to control distance and probe for an opening. In a matchfight, you can reasonably expect blocking and slipping techniques to work. In an assault, you would be very lucky indeed to block anything except by way of an instinctive cover.

Tommy Turner's cross arm posture allows you to just reflexively flinch and cover against the right hand sucker punch that will be used in attack most of the time. From here you can launch an axe hand, chin jab or tiger claw depending on distance and the openings your opponent gives you. If you are quick enough, you can use a shoulder stop or attack the incoming limb with axe hands directly.
If he goes for a tackle, you can sprawl as per Tommy's method whack the guy on the back of the neck. If he tries to kick low then check and kick back. If he tries to kick high then attack on a long drop step with a hand technique. If he attempts to clinch then just attack.

How much more complex do you want to make things?
Cheers,
Stu.

V42
Moderator
(6/16/03 12:00 am)
Reply
Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Let me add that Pegomez is a police instructor and former officer and a professional trainer at a well known defensive training organization that he probably does not want to get dragged into this.

Steven Zorn writes:
Quote:
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No excuses here. Sounds like some of your theories are excuses for not having what it takes to actually check out an instructor yourself rather than take pop-shots at him over the net.
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Really? Have you ever trained with Carl Cestari or Kelly McCann, two intructors who do a good job of teaching WWII Combatives? Has Hock? And I mean trained with them, not had his picture taken. It would seem you and Hock are guilty of the same thing you accuse me of.


Quote:
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As an example, an axe-hand can be reflexively blocked by even the most inexperienced attacker on the street. From what I have seen of the videos, the instructors don't teach what to do then.
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You keep keep hitting and kicking them is what you do. You don't just launch one strike. It is easier to keep attacking than to try to figure out "he blocked XYZ technique, so I have to use 123 counter for it" in a real time basis under the stress of what could be a life and death encounter.

And what videos have you seen? Have you seen Carl Cestari or Jim Grover (Kelly McCann) videos, modern instructional videos, or just the WWII newsreal videos?


Quote:
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If you had ever attended a seminar with Hock you would know that he discusses adrenal response and it's relation to combat. In fact, from my understanding he will be adding some separate Model Mugging type of programs to a few of his seminars, specifically for the women. I find it strange that he would do such as thing, if he indeed did negelect the "adrenal response" theories as you claim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The whole point is that a lot of his techniques are too difficult to pull off in a real life violent situation under adrenal stress.

I hope he does add some type of model mugging padded assailant adrenal response type training. And I hope he has men go through it as well women. I think they will find that a lot of the more complicated techniques that they practiced in training go right out the window.

This is what I have observed having attended various programs like that and seen Kenpo and JKD instructors reduced to gross motor strikes that look nothing like the techniques they spent years training in and teaching other people.

This is why a lot of martial arts instructors do not like this type of training, because most of the more complicated things that their students spend years training go out the window. The whole premise of Combatives is to try to see what works in real life violent situations and build on that rather than waste time on unworkable techniques. On this, Steve, you, me and Hock will probably have to agree to disagree.

RE WWII combatives Steve Zorn wrote:
Quote:
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Actually, I think that he just placed things in proper perspective.
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No, he slammed it. Reread his quote from Realfighting.com and this response to Hock's "Cops" comment by Carl Cestari:
www.allinfighting.com/Cops.html

Hock shared his thoughts on WWII style CQC in his own Close Quarters Magazine from some time ago. He divided systems into, simple, complicated, and thorough. Simple ones are oversimplified; complicated ones are technique collectors like JKD (which he used to study and teach), and thorough collects only the best, as his claims to.

He states, "The simples ones may become dangerously over-simplified. Their dedication to the grossest motor skills approach and lack of confidence in the practitioner's learning abilities may leave the student without backup options should their "karate chop", and chin jab combination fail. They lack the much needed problem solving and knowledge of counters."

And to quote Dave Walmsley on this, since he has already stated it so well there is no reason for me to try to rewrite it: "I guess the first thing to understand is that the martial arts is a business and there is a lot of money out there and people are looking for all kinds of ways to get! Hock seems to be the best there is at creating various systems, or congresses as he likes to call them. One has to wonder why so many? Money is the only answer that makes any sense."

Walmsley goes on to state: "Anyway since I teach the chop and chinjab I felt I should respond. Forget any of the fancy "counter" crap! When your in the shit the only thing that is going to save your ass is going to be savage, powerful strikes or attacks combined with the mindset to keep going! What do you do if the chop-chinjab fails? You keep fighting! You hit him again - and there's no problem using the same attack. Anyone who thinks that learning a "counter" or a "counter to a counter" is going to be their saviour is a fool, period! When I say "counter" I'm talking about these ridiculous "flow drills" that are being taught as combat. Pure martial arts crap disguised as self-defense."

As for Groundfighting, check Carl Cestari's Dirty Groundfighting video, or the Navy V-5 Hand to Hand Combat manual, or Jame Hipkiss' book Self Defence.

Steve Zorn writes:
Quote:
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I find it funny that you invested so much time on these forums slamming others rather than promoting unity in the cause.
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Unity in what cause? I discuss things that interest me with people who have similar interests.

I prefer to leave things alone, but if someone claims that Aikido is a good to study for self defense, I think someone needs to step up to the plate and explain the problems with relying on it for self defense. Just as I have had a gunsmith step up to the plate and detail his experiences with dozens of broken Taurus revolvers when I was considering one.

For the record, I think Hock's system contains many good things that are or could be usable in real life self defense. But I feel it is overcomplicated with extraneous material, fluff, and things that will never emerge in a real life violent situation when your life is at risk.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. When I studied JKD, we spent about a third of our time on various trapping drills. Interestingly enough, I never saw any of Paul Vunak's top students who were instructors in their own rights, pull off a single trap in sparring. So we were spending a third of our time studying techniques unusable by instructors.

Oh, and I don't claim to be a leader of anything.


vfortytwoATyahoo.com

to send email replace the AT in the above address with the @ symbol

Edited by: V42 at: 6/16/03 3:25 am

V42
Moderator
(6/16/03 1:00 am)
Reply
Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Oops, almost forgot.

Great post, Stu.

vfortytwoATyahoo.com

to send email replace the AT in the above address with the @ symbol

All In Fighter
Member
(6/16/03 3:05 am)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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V42...I thought better, why bother!


Quote:
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V42 wrote "Oh, and I don't claim to be a leader of anything"
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V42 - Aren't you part of the "WOLFPACK?"


CLINT


Edited by: All In Fighter at: 6/16/03 4:10 am

Francisp
Member
(6/16/03 9:07 am)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Marciano said there was NO DEFENSE AGAINST THE AXE HAND! THe axe hand can hack right through a guard. Oh yeah, its easily blocked. Where do we find these people?

Phil Elmore Dot Com
The Martialist
(6/16/03 9:33 am)
Reply
Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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I don't see any reason this thread needs to become an exchange of barbs. No one -- except Hock, I suppose -- needs to take criticism of Hock personally.

When an instructor produces videotapes, that instructor is producing something that represents him and what he teaches. Regardless of how that instructor might come across in person, we are not debating, "Could Hock take me down in a fight?" Rather, the issue is, "Will Hock's teachings benefit the student?"

If there are people out there absorbing material from Hock's instructional videos and books, the information conveyed on those materials is definitely an issue. Sure, you can say, "Just because Tape X sucks doesn't mean Instructor X doesn't know what he's doing." Well, no, it doesn't -- but Instructor X must take responsibility for what he has produced. I've read quotes from more than one instructor who was chagrined at the results of a particular taping session.

Opinions of Hock aside, criticism of what is invalid is equally as important as advocacy of what is valid, particularly given the volumes of poor self-defense materials being peddled as worthwhile.

Let's try to get along while discussing this issue.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phil Elmore, author of Demon Lord
and publisher of The Martialist e-zine



- Visit FULL CIRCLE MAGAZINE

- Visit The Battlefield: WW2 Close Combat

Reactor
Member
(6/16/03 10:11 pm)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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Thanks for the sober message, Phil.

Like many here, I advocate Jim Grover's Combatives for SD, and my SD training revolves around his teachings and philosophy

But I try to keep an open mind.

So when I asked PEGomez for his opinion on Hock's tapes, it was precisely to get his point of view, something that I felt would offer more value over the marketing rhetoric all over the Web.

Obviously, there will always be strong views about Hock, for and against.

And while, as Phil points out, these views can be shared with a less hostile undercurrent, the sharpness of some views provide their own insights and are appreciated by me.

It cannot be gainsaid that Hock, or more precisely Hock's tapes, has made a lot of noise in the SD world. I'm sure I'm not alone in wondering whether this is a result of superior marketing, or a good product. This thread is already providing some answers.

Phil Elmore Dot Com
The Martialist
(6/17/03 8:26 am)
Reply
Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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I think we're on track. This is a good topic and an important issue -- and I think everyone here welcomes opinions on both sides of it.

- Phil Elmore




gnarlmaster
Member
(6/17/03 8:59 am)
Reply Hock
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Hi,

I think in the continuum of fighting styles Hock is closer to "us" then "them". If someone were to ask me if they should study Hock's stuff, I'd say sure, but don't take it all too seriously (or as seriously as Hock seems to). They would be much better off studying Hock's stuff then studying from 95% of the other garbage out there. They would probably be better off (self-defense-wise) then if they studied more traditional martial arts at most local Dojos.

I like alot of what I have read by Hock, though I can't agree with his filipino-based viewpoint of skill development entirely. His Knife fighting encyclopedias are a great source of drills and flows put together in a solid detailed way. Most of the people at this board could go to one of hock's seminars or watch a video and distill what is good and instantly usable from what is drill and flow training for the sake of development. We could learn something and get rid of the "fluff", or at least see the "fluff" as simply a training modality and use it as that. It is not all as practical and ready-to-use as-is as Hock presents it.

But, the "weakness" of Hock's system is exactly what he sees as it's strength. Not to long ago he made some comments about Kary's American combatives System be too simple with to few moves to work in real life. We function from the view point that THAT is a strength. Less to teach, less to master, less to confuse us in a life-or-death, high-stress situation. "Attack, Attack, Attack" is much easier to teach, master, use and utilize than "deflect, Parry, change-foot-Position, Trap, Disarm, Re-engage, Attack, joint-lock, foot-sweep, lock and restrain". In the search for a more complete answer the system is ever-widened with new techniques to encompass the imaginable, rather than imagining your system can encompass all the variables with a few well practiced moves.

I would recommend Hock's stuff simply because it can get boring for most people to practice for self-defense alone. I differ from the opinions of others on this board in that I believe it is o.k. to study other arts to make ourselves more complete and well-rounded fighters. Once you get past the basics and ingrain them, it's o.k. to step outside that box and practice other things as long as you keep reality in mind. Separate the wheat from the chaff yourself and learn what makes things work or not work for yourself. This, though is hard to do for beginners or people who THINK they are passed the beginner's stage.

Thanks guys,

Jim Olsen

P.S. I have not been to one of Hock's Seminars. A good friend of mine, J.C. who I respect highly (jarhead who has worked in personal security for years, built like a tank with a killer instinct) liked Hock, and said his seminars were worth checking out. J.C. went to a seminar and did all the stuff and thought it was all good until they paired up to practice it. J.C. told me that in his opinion even the experienced Hock guys could not pull off alot of the flow techniques with stick and knife when a little "umph" was put in the mix. still, he said it had good material that could be made to work, but certainly not in every situation. Me, I'm too busy doing what I'm doing to add another thing to my plate.

combatjudo
Member
(6/17/03 11:39 am)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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hock's stuff is an attempt to take poor jkd [ from gary dill ] poor arnis and some kajukenbo and turn it into close combats skills , he has too many complicated skills sections [ something like 40-50 tapes ] ---which goes against the principles of close combat [ fewr the better ] he likes the cash , in it for the money -------if you cannnot be taught unarmed and knife and stick in one wek , the system is far too complicated [ of cousre you have to keep working out !] but hock never studied real close combat but has a 10 dan in vivid imagination ---ralph

combatjudo
Member
(6/17/03 11:41 am)
Reply Re: Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?
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hoch does not teach close combat , he teaches jkd [ very poor] arnis , some aiki, some kajukenbo and tries to fit it into a close combat forum ----ralph


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Battlefield Forum
> Combatives Discussion
> Anyone have any experience with Hoch Hochheim?

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Author Comment
V42
Moderator
(6/17/03 4:35 pm)
Reply new blood
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Amazing! The day I go out of town and swear I am not going to look at the forum, two major sources of subtance who I respect - Ralph Grasso & Jim Olsen - show up!

Welcome guys.

Maybe I need to go out of town more often!

Accessing this forum from a crappy 48k modem

pegomez
Member
(6/17/03 6:38 pm)
Reply Walter "Hock" Hocheim
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Well, I dug out the "Training Mission One" book and watched the tactical folders tape that Hock did & TRS released. What a bunch of crap! Going through his "Training Mission One" book, I felt like I was attending an Amway meeting. If you master everything in TMO, you will be a Master CQCG Instructor. That's Close Quarters Combatives Group Instructor, if you're wondering what the hell CQCG stood for. Now to get to that Master level, you have to "master" all 10 levels in seven different areas. But wait, if you "master" the first three levels in all seven areas, you qualify to be a Basic CQCG Instructor. Then once you "master" all the way up to Level 6 in all areas, you become an Advanced CQCG Instructor. At level 9, you become an Expert CQCG Instructor.

The Seven areas are:

CQCG Unarmed Combatives Course
Strikes
-finger strikes
-palm strikes
-forearm strikes
-hammer fist
-punch/counter punch
-elbow strikes
-body ram
-limited use/headbutt
-blocking/counterblocking
-combat scenario performance
Kicks
-frontal snap kick
-frontal thrusting kick
-frontal oblique kick
-rear leg round kick
-front leg hook kick
-back kick
-side kick
-knee strike
-stomp
-combat scenario performance
Invading Hands
Takedowns & Throws
CQCG Knife/Counter-Knife Course
CQCG SDMS Impact Weapon Course
CQCG Gun/Counter-Gun Course

What's scary is how poor his body mechanics appear in print. I mean if you are so far off balance that you are nearly falling over in a still picture, what's going to happen in the real world?

------------------

Watching the knife tape was painful. It's glaringly obvious that Hock has a Filipino background. A very light Filipino backgroud. It's also apparant that he has issues with acknowledging the roots of his training. His movements and drills were "party-line FMA" stuff, but he had to rename things, to make it his own, I guess. Anyone familiar with the standard 5-count & 7-count angles of attack would immediately recognize Hock's "4-corners" striking sequence and his "inverted stabbing triangle" as counts 1-4 & 5-7 respectively.

If Hock does have a JKD background (I've heard this from several sources), you can't tell by the way he moves. Some of the other guys in the vid move with traditional JKD footwork, but not Hock. Given his penchant for complaining about WWII Combatives, I found it very interesting how often he relied upon the ax hand and palm heel during his demos.

Enough, already. My take on Hock in a nutshell:

It's a racket. Look at all the flashy videos and books and marketing. But when you actually look at the material being presented, it is so substandard that it is amazing to me how anyone, particularly anyone with a martial arts or combatives background, could be taken in by it all. Unfortunately, a lot of people fall for the hype. I have to place Mr. Walter "Hock" Hochheim in the same catagory as Mr. Jerry Peterson and his SCARS system.

Gomez



combatjudo
Member
(6/17/03 6:46 pm)
Reply Re: Walter "Hock" Hocheim
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members, he is a fucking con-artist ------his jkd comes from gary dill [ whom is talked about like dog by jkd guys ] ---his ranking in arnis is the seminar type -----his 4-50 some odd tapes make him money grubbing in my opinion -------he has no knowledge about real ww2 close combat so he down plays it ---------he is not close combat -----period------ralph

[jkdberlin]

Siehste Mike, genug Worte, oder was?

Grüsse

[Michael Kann]

Original geschrieben von jkdberlin
Siehste Mike, genug Worte, oder was?

Grüsse

Hi Frank,

bin noch nicht zum lesen gekommen ... shit! Wenn Du damit sagen willst, genug der Worte sind gewechselt, lasset Taten folgen ... so muß ich Dir sagen, dass ich mir ehrlich gesagt noch nicht schlüssig darin bin, ob ich Hock Hochheim mal beim Seminar besuche oder nicht! Hab bisher nur einige Aufnahmen von ihm gesehen und das was ich dort gesehen habe, läßt sich am besten mit DEINEN Worten, auf meine Situation leicht abgeändert, beschreiben:

Bei ca. 3/4 des Materials sah ich Sachen, die andere Instructoren teilweise bedeutend besser rüberbringen.

Von seinen "künstlerischen" Fähigkeiten mit dem Messer, vor allem beim öffnen, mal ganz abgesehen!

So ein Seminar ist ja nicht ganz billig ... deshalb muß sowas überlegt angegangen werden

Gruß
Mike