Haitianischer Machetenkampf

[FireFlea]

Ja ich weiß, kein FMA aber ich dachte hier passt es am ehesten rein:

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting 01

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting 02 (Big Rasta)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #1 (Mike taking hits from Professor Avril with sticks)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #2 (Mike, Jean-Paul, Claire and Professor Avril)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #3 (Roland, Oben and Jean-Paul taking hits from Professor Avril)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #4 (Reginald and Mike taking hits from Professor Avril)

YouTube - Haitian Machete Fighting ~ June '09 #5 (Mike and Oben trading hits)

[FrAgGlE]

Interessante Videos

[El Commandante]

Was meint ihr, haben die es in Ruanda auch so schoen gemacht?

[amasbaal]

Was meint ihr, haben die es in Ruanda auch so schoen gemacht?

Wohl kaum, denn die Opfer waren etwa 800.000 bis 1.000.000 Menschen in nur 100 Tagen. Nahezu alle waren unbewaffnete Zivilisten. Etwa 75 Prozent der in Ruanda lebenden Tutsi-Minderheit sowie Hutu, die sich am Völkermord nicht beteiligten oder sich aktiv dagegen einsetzten waren danach tot - und sind meist zuvor heftig verstümmelt, also regelrecht abgeschlachtet worden. Das ist eine sehr blutige Angelegenheit und hat nix mit schön zu tun. Völkermord ist gar nicht lustig - auch nicht mit Macheten als Haupttatwaffe!

[snasna]

Unter der am Videoende angegebenen Adresse findet man noch ein paar mehr Infos zum haitianischen Fechten (wenn auch nicht viel)

Ich hab nur kurz in ein paar dieser Clip reingeguckt, gibts da noch mehr zu sehen als diesen kontinuierlichen vermutlichen Blockdrill mit Schrittarbeit und Entwaffnungsansatz durch Waffe am Boden mit einem Tritt pinnen?

Die Anleihen an europäische Fechtkunst und Capoeira Schrittarbeit sind offensichtlich (wie auch auf der Seite bemerkt).

Claire braucht dringend einen Sport-BH...

[panzerknacker]

...
Claire braucht dringend einen Sport-BH...

Big Rasta auch...
Habe mir ein paar der Clips angesehen, im ersten wird ja davon gesprochen, das sei freeflow, aber ist wie in den anderen alles corto drill.
Üben die keine Konterarbeit? Geblockt wird nur auf Klinge? Selbst wenn man füttert, sollte man seinen Rücken wohl nicht so exponieren.
Laut Webseite sind das Leute die seit 5,6 Jahren lernen.
Die freie Hand hinter dem Rücken finde ich im corto persönlich nicht so schön,
ich habe die lieber vor meinem Hals, zumal gerade im corto eine alive Hand einem das Leben retten kann.
Das, was ich an Villabrille/Largusa mal gelernt habe, finde ich deutlich besser als das hier.
Franck

[generalrelative]

Guten Tag,
I do not speak German, so I am posting in English. I hope you don't mind! I am very glad to see that there is some interest here in our Haitian Machete Fighting videos. Here is a new one, a composite of last year's program: YouTube - Machete Fighting - The Haitian Fencing Project. If you think you might be interested in training with master fencer August Avril in Haiti this coming year (May to mid-June), check out our website: http://culturalcapitalhaiti.org/fencingproject
Peace,
Mike Rogers, (aka generalrelative), program coordinator, Cultural Capital Haiti

[generalrelative]

Using Google Translate, I see that some of you have concerns about the quality or functionality of the training documented in these videos. Perhaps I misunderstand them, but I will do my best to answer. First, this type of training is neither free-form sparring nor choreographed drills, two methods that are quite common in other martial-arts traditions. However, this traditional training is, I believe, quite effective. The idea is to train the student to stay 'cool' in the midst of attacks from all angles, and to be constantly moving into a superior position, one 'inside' your opponent's guard while keeping them 'outside' your own. If you have ever tried to integrate the kind of counter-strikes that are popular in choreographed drills into actual sparring, you know how difficult it is. That is why 'modulated aliveness', where training partners gradually step up resistance, speed and complexity of movement, has been gaining popularity in functional martial-arts circles (see YouTube - MATT THORNTON ALIVENESS - martial arts most important thing Straight blast for an explanation--apologies if this is old news to you and I am preaching to the converted). This explains the varied speed of attack, and the fact that you see very few complicated maneuvers. We do spar, and we do learn discrete techniques, with the off-hand for instance, but these are not the main method of our training. In response to panzerknacker's other concerns: 1) The attacker often turns the back to train the student in blocking a desperate attacker in that position, which is important because that is the position (behind the opponent's back) that we are usually trying to get to. That being so, it is easy to forget that your opponent is still dangerous--check out the point in the video I posted above (~3:22) where my teacher knocks off his son Roland's hat from that position without exposing himself. 2) The hand up to the neck is also done in the Haitian style, but by more advanced fencers. As beginners we keep the off-hand behind the back as a way of training to keep it out of danger when we are not using it for something essential at that precise moment. 3) My friend Reginald (the big Rasta) and I have been training with professor Avril for several years, but not at all constantly. I can only get to Haiti for a few weeks or months every year, and Reginald, as you can see, isn't crazy about exercise. In the above videos, Claire is going through some of her first lessons. I have included all of these videos to show that this training is open to people of all athletic levels. 'Haitian Machete Fighting' can sound intimidating for most people--indeed, even coming to Haiti is intimidating for most people--and I wanted to show how informal and fun, as well as challenging, this training is. Above all, the mission of our organization, Cultural Capital Haiti, is to get foreigners to travel to Haiti to learn. Please let me know if I can answer any more of your questions or concerns about this martial art or our training program. Peace,
Mike

[gast]

Hi generalrelative,

Thanks for coming by and explaining.

[hansevingtsun]

Hello generalrelative.

At first, please excuse my bad english.
Am I right, when I see no blocking edge-on-egde in your vids? You´re always blocking with the side of the blade in your system?

Greetz from Krautland, H.

[panzerknacker]

Hi generalrelative,

Thanks for coming by and explaining.

Yep, thank you for lighten up some points.
Actually I do have some more questions.
Looking at the videos I only can spot corto play, is this the main emphasis of
the style or just coincidence, is there a larga mano aquivalent?
As mentioned in my above post, I see only blockwork blade on blade, don´t you use deflections, parries, limbattacks aka defanging the snake?
Thanks in advance
Franck
Edit
After looking into the Matt Thornton Vid, I think you´ve got something wrong in your translations, the difference between trainingsdrills and real live fighting is quite clear and not critized, but the main concern of any drill should be to develop skills which are useful in in real life. But what Thornton is saying is, technicaldrilling is not useful, opponents aren´t cooperative, simple skills rule.
So for example the hand on the back is in larga mano very useful for not getting chopped off and for balancing, especially
with longer blades but in corto play it makes not much sense, so why train it?
The intention to get in the back of your opponent is good if you´ve got a duell situation, but should be done by oneself, not by turning the drillfeeder in a back position, and if/when position reached, there should be the killstrikes.
Simplifying attacks is also useful, because under stress all the fancy stuff won´t work, even if fancies are often the funpart.
But I cannot see this in the videos, for me, simple stuff is upward and downward diagonal attacks, banda y banda, rompida and
a low sonkete as techniques and figure eight and redonda moves for connecting them. Maybe less .
So seeking the corto when both players are equipped with blades should be done with focus, timing, aggression, power, quickness and with the intention to kill, not to play.
I had the opportunity to learn a little Villabrille Kali years ago, which style emphasis on corto play and I really love the videos
of the late Sonny Umpad who also likes to seek the corto.
So maybe you´ve got some vids of the style with bridging the gap from largo to corto, "real" attacks with block/parrywork ?

[generalrelative]

Thanks for the great questions. And for asking them in my language. Hansevingtsun, yes, when we train, we block with the flat of the blade (and the flat of our wooden replicas). This is according to our teacher's strict requirement: "the flat is for your friends, the edge is for your enemies". I cannot really justify this as being practical when it is only wooden replicas and we are unlikely to cut off each other's fingers, except by pointing out that Vodou spirituality is very deeply interwoven into our teacher's training regime (as it is in most aspects of 'traditional' or rural Haitian culture), and so perhaps the show of non-aggression against your partner is important for that reason. I will ask him about this the next time I am in Haiti, this coming Spring. I should emphasize here that there is a lot about this martial art that I do not fully understand. I do speak Creole quite well, but our teacher is often reluctant to explain things conceptually, preferring to teach by example. I am still trying to untangle for myself which elements of our training are truly functional and which are merely vestiges of tradition. Panzerknacker, I had to look up the definition of 'corto' and 'largo' because I really do not know anything about Filipino martial arts. Yes, we always strive to get in close, and to force the opponent to go backwards. Also, we strive to keep the sword arm bent until the moment to strike arrives. Watch what happens to me when I fail to keep my arm bent at ~3:27: YouTube - Machete Fighting - The Haitian Fencing Project. I don't know what you mean about deflections and parries, since I think that is most of what you see in these videos. Perhaps you could explain? Attacking the striker (or 'feeder'), on the arm or elsewhere, is reserved for moments when you see that they are making a key mistake and can be struck without being in danger yourself. Usually, though, we simply strive to 'embarrass' the striker by sticking to their back or forcing them backwards. With regard to your question about the off-hand being behind the back during close-up fighting, I guess we are operating off of different principles, or at least seeing different aspects of the close-up fight as most important. When I spar hard, I often employ my off-hand, but only for a fraction of a second. I would compare this to the principle of keeping your hips out in a Jiu-Jitsu clinch (if you know about this): you keep your hips out, away from your opponent's grasp unless you are doing something like attempting a throw at that precise moment. Only then do you bring your hips in, and if it doesn't work you bring them back out again as quickly as possible. This coming Spring, when I am back in Haiti, I will try to document this. With regard to your next concern, "for me, simple stuff is upward and downward diagonal attacks, banda y banda, rompida and a low sonkete as techniques and figure eight and redonda moves for connecting them", again, though I do not know what all of these terms mean, I think that we are operating off of different principles. My teacher's training method is all about moving 'inside' the opponent's guard while keeping him 'outside' your own. We do not train in strikes, really, since these are considered matter-of-fact, but mainly in blocks, steps, and turns. I do not think that either of our styles have a monopoly on functionality, however, and I'm sure that we could learn a lot by training in each other's method. I will look at whatever I can find on Sonny Umpad and get back to you about the transition from 'largo' to 'corto', since I find this an interesting question (and one that sometimes confuses me in our training). I hope this has been informative. Thanks again for your engagement! Peace,
Mike

[Darraco]

I am a mere beginner in my martial arts (phase 1 kali sikaran and yellow belt ju jutsu), so excuse me if i sound a little bit like a newbie, because i am but we use to do some sparring regularly, and when i watch these videos and read your comments, i think these drills rely heavily on footwork and tactical positioning of yourself.

but as already mentioned the whole videos only show corto (short) distance (where you can hit each other with the grip of your weapon or your bare unarmed other hand. in that distance the weapon of the enemy is not the only threat (although the highest, naturally..), there are also punches and elbows, knees to the groin, sweep kicks etc. and being used to stay in corto distance also seems quite dangerous to me: when you feel like striking the enemy, your blade will most likely be in or at your opponents body, but as knives and blades are deadly weapons, but dont have an immediate stopping impulse, in corto distance, the enemy, before he dies, will be able to do at least one counter-strike most of the time. (and i dont like the idea of dying, even though the enemy might be dead as well.. sounds just like another version of losing to me)
thats why we are trainied to stay in at least medio distance, first priority in controlling the weapon hand, closing distance, few strikes, and backing up to largo distance as fast as possible.

nontheless i like the positioning idea of your martial arts, but i would really like to know what you do against non-weapon attacks and counter strikes. or is the whole art base on just weapon attacks like the classical fencicng, so more like a sports?

oh, and thanks for posting, i never knew about a haitian fighting art before.

best greetings,
d.

edit: i looked around a little bit, and although from a different background, thats quite similar to the kind of sparring we do: YouTube - ACT fighting with bolo (machete) - sparring although trying a litlle more parry/block-counter strike-combinations.

[generalrelative]

Darraco--Great question. First of all, the Haitian art of Machete Fighting is much more broad than my experience with my teacher, August Avril, and the videos that I've been able to capture. I'll bet that there are some teachers whose training involves a great deal of non-blade attacks. However, as you readily point out, the blade is, in itself, the most dangerous thing in the game. A kick, jab or other non-weapon attack will likely be the setup for an immediate strike with the blade, rather than a fully committed blow. And the blade moves quickly enough in a skillful hand that any of these maneuvers could quickly lead to the loss of a limb. It is precisely out of the kind of concern for keeping your body parts that guides my teacher's methodology as well. Indeed, when we move our feet correctly, for instance, he often jokes: "Oh, you decided to keep that foot after all?" While we do strive to get close to the opponent in order to have the possibility of getting 'inside' their guard, we work hard at the same time to keep our entire body 'outside' of their reach. As you put it, the opponent 'will be able to do at least one counter-strike most of the time.' The fact that it is indeed 'most of the time' and not 'all the time', and that we have some say in the matter (that it is not random), is the key to understanding my teacher's method: to move to a position from which a counter-strike is awkward, or already 'fenced' off, and only then to strike. I think that it is a mistake to strictly equate throwing a lot of strikes with the aggressive, lethal intent that wins real-life engagements. Rather, as I think my teacher would argue, it is a valid strategy to use your blade to fence yourself off from harm until you can work your way 'inside' and execute a strike with relative safety. One important difference between my teacher's method and the one you describe is that he teaches us never to back up if we can help it, and, indeed, to try to force the opponent to do so. This is because when your opponent takes the time to retreat, you can follow them with your blade by extending the sword arm (ideally kept tightly bent until this point), executing a strike as you bring the rest of your body forward to retain a 'fenced' position (your blade between you and your opponent's blade). Additionally, while I understand the appeal of regaining the safety of distance, if somebody is going to go down in the encounter, I would argue that you want to be the one maintaining the intensity. This is not to denigrate your way of training, but only to say that there is another way of approaching these issues that is also valid. With regard to your question-- more like a sport or a functional martial art?--after some thought, here is my answer: In an unarmed fight I'm sure that I could beat my teacher quite easily, but with blades I wouldn't want to go up against him any day of the week. I think that makes it a functional art.

Panzerknacker--I looked at four of the first Sonny Umpad videos that come up on YouTube. Thank you for letting me know about him. He is amazing. You can clearly see how he takes his students from simple elbow and foot-work drills, through some choreographed maneuvers, and into free-form sparring. You can see how good he is especially when he is matched by a student that is very good, like Maija Soderholm, with whom the blade-work takes on something like the unpredictability, aggression and speed of a real-life encounter. Seeing these videos made me reconsider some other videos that I had seen on Haitian stick/machete fighting, which I had discounted out of hand as being choreographed and not serious... YouTube - Muti, African Stick Fighting Martial Arts of Haiti and the Kongo ...I see now that they are quite a bit similar to the early-stage drills of Mr. Umpad, and they probably come out of another line of the Haitian tradition (the video's poster claims a recent, direct connection with African stick-fighting arts) where the more advanced practitioners are not documented online yet. I am sure that there are masters living in the hills of Haiti who, collectively, practice a lot of the techniques that Mr. Umpad does, but so much of this knowledge remains esoteric there. Part of my impetus for trying to publicize Haitian Fencing is to get some more of these old practitioners to come out of the woodwork and document their knowledge. Also, maybe if we can raise the profile of this art to some extent, more young people will commit to carrying on the traditions into the future. Can you recommend any videos online that show more explicitly the transition from largo to corto? I have been pondering this...

Peace, one and all,
Mike

[panzerknacker]

Hello Mike,
haven´t been around the last days.
For me blocking means to go against the force and connecting both weapons.
This is quite ***** and inefficient. This could be a aggressive roofblock.
So you could "block" against the opponents limb aka chopping his hand off also quite ***** . This could be an evade with simultaneous attack to the weaponarm.
Or you could deflect by evading, going with the force of the opponent leading his weapon by and opening the gap for your killstrike, very elegant but difficult. Hard to explain maybe like some moves in staff fighting.
By parrying I mean to let the attack just roll of your weapon. This could be like the reverseblock you are doing in the vids, also called umbrella.
Kinda hard to explain if your not familiar with FMA-terms.
Actually I´m merely interested in the concepts of your style not in techniques.
Techniques could be the same or just looking similar.
But a bladesystem that emphasizes the corto has to have a extaordinary footwork and sophisticated moves to come into position.
As you can see by my nickname (beagle boy ) I´m merely the ***** force type.
I did Karate for years so your hip thing is quite clear, actually I can´t connect it with the offhand?
Some other cool links into the blade arts:
YouTube - Chaîne de BahalaNaMartialArts
YouTube - Chaîne de LeoGironBahalaNa
YouTube - Chaîne de 375Bagumbayan
the style of Leo Giron
YouTube - Chaîne de atienzakali
the style of the atienzas
http://fma.rtrinidad.com/files/lionheart-sanchez.wmv
cinco teros
http://fma.rtrinidad.com/files/lionh...lustrisimo.wmv
Tatang Illustrissimos style
YouTube - Chaîne de TuhonBillMcg
Pekiti Tirsia
YouTube - Chaîne de SerradaEscrima
the style of Angel Cabales
YouTube - Chaîne de stevegartin
Kuntao de Thouars
YouTube - Chaîne de tossetoke
German longsword, langes Messer, sword and buckler
http://www.kampfkunst-board.info/for...a-clips-48622/
tons of stuff
Have fun
Franck
The 5* were the English word for "brutal", no idea why the boardsoftware censors the word b r u t e ?