JKD und Straight Lead

[angHell]

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead"!

Wo?

Mit viel gutem Wollen sieht man einen Pak/FS - wobei Du Deinem Schlag so sehr hinterherfällst/reinlehnst, dass das nur mit sonem dummy möglich ist...

Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.

It would look like JKD? You cannot wipe all out, otherwise you have nothing/all.

Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

I think that is ideology and can not be proven. Every MA is designed for the human body. Maybe some use more "natural" behaviour than others - or others try to build the body through training the MA - but this is nothing that JKD has for its own...

I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..

Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?

Well, in my rookie () opinion, that's quite a good straight lead:

Click it like it's hot...(at 3:35)

What do the JKD-Elderly () say to this?

Mainly the beginning punches look for me like SL!? Not a jab - the later punches look more like jab. But what do the JKD-men say to this? I've seen a lot of much more bad SLs....

[SteFanJKD]

what is in the realm of personal interpretation or individual preferences or abilities.

To me this question is easy to answer. If there is an interpretation it is not JKD, it is simply your own truth. As Bob Bremer said "Jun Fan JKD is what Bruce lee was doing when he was doing it"

I consider a person a JKD practitoner if he is lucky to be one of those 1 out of 10 000 that Bruce said could handle JKD. By that I mean that The On Guard, footwork etc works for you without indvidual interpretation.

Whatever intepretation is needed, however small I consider it a personal truth. But if we are talking about personal refinemnet, that is something else. Take the Lead punch. It took Ted 6 months to learn it, he has refined it by reseraching the technique taught him by Bruce Lee,not changing anything, only his understanding of why Bruce chose it.

I think that is ideology and can not be proven. Every MA is designed for the human body. Maybe some use more "natural" behaviour than others - or others try to build the body through training the MA - but this is nothing that JKD has for its own...

Is every martial art designed for the Human Body. well, if you call imitating a crane beak or a tiger claw with the human Body you are correct.

What i mean is that Bruce Lee studied the vulnerable points of the Human Body as well as the sceletal anatomy when he chose his On Guard. If you want to protect the groin I would say that it would look a specific way if you base it on the Human Body. The Boxing Guard is base upon the Human Body, but I would say it is not based upon protecting the human reproction organ, ist it

What JKD has for its own is that it has a specific way to "build the body through MA". By changing this, having an On Guard that leaves the groin open and say that
- well I KNOW my groin is open so it is no problem
and therefore say that they have an On Guard where the groin is protected is not JKD to me.

Just so that my comments will not be mistaken as I am saying "this is better than that" I want to remind everybiody that it is simply my point of view, not an ultimate truth.

Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?

This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.

The other thing is that the curving motion affects the posture in relating force at impact. according to me the energy should me concentrate straight all through the target, by starting a curving motion the timing is much harder, you might miss the alignment/triangle principle of the shoulder, fist and hip and therefore loose power according to Newtons law of "for every action there is an oposite and equal reaction"

Mainly the beginning punches look for me like SL!? Not a jab - the later punches look more like jab. But what do the JKD-men say to this? I've seen a lot of much more bad SLs....

I saw other things than the Fist that I think we should concentrate on when it comes to a straight Lead.

Firts of all. I have said that JKd is based upon the Human Anatomy. How do we walk? We land on the heal and then the toes. According to TWJKD The Lead Straight is supposed to land on the Heal, it has to do with posture in relating Force

Before kicks Bruce Lee had a variation with a small motion of the Leading Foot. When it comes to punching Hand always goes before the foot, this has also to do with Postures in relating force, what in TWJKD is called Three point Landing.

When it comes to the actual punch I think it demonstrates the difference between a jab and a Straight Lead. Straight Lead is a Power Punch, The jab is a "feeler"

Just some of my thoughts, not an ultimate truth

/SteFan

[Tangkapan]

Hi

Hier ein Beispiel für "straight lead"!

Ist zwar kein zertifiertes JKD, hat aber grundlegend damit zu tun! Weil in meinem KK-Lebenslauf, Jun Fan eine große Rolle spielte (spielt)!

Gruß
Hongmen

No straight lead there..
Maybe a glimps of a fake eye-jab

[Hongmen]

No straight lead there..
Maybe a glimps of a fake eye-jab

O.k., no straight lead! I can live with that! Thx you all for the information!

Hongmen

[angHell]

This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.

Where do you think is something said about a curving line:

Bruce was not intrested in making a style about the fight movemnets, the techniques excanged between two humans. He said "we only have two arms and two legs, how can we use them to a maximum". He was intrested in finding the techniques used in a simple, direct matter, starting in an On Guard based upon the human anatomy, not an animal or ancient tradition. We don't crawl like a snake or have claws like a tiger. Bruce lee created JKD from the Human anatomy.

?

Don't see it.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

The problem with this discussion is,
that the TW camp seemed to have agreed on a unique definition of terms that are used completely diffrently by other camps.

It seems like TED WONG JEET KUNE DO and Ted Wong´s Jeet Kune Do are used for BRUCE LEE`S JEET KUNE DO and BRUCE LEE`S PERSONAL WAY TO EXPRESS JEET KUNE DO.

It also seems like they dont call the "original" JKD system, build around 1965, termed in 1967 and and taught e.g. in Bruce Lee´s chinatown school as a general curriculum that contained trapping, grappling, locks, throws etc JEET KUNE DO, they call it JUN FAN GUNG FU.

That is backed up by the certificates of the school simply being rank certificates of the institute, while the JKD ones were only issued to individuals taught by Bruce Lee personally for an extended period of time.

(what we dont know of course, since we ve never been there, is: did Bruce Lee teach HIS OWN PERSONAL JKD to these individuals, or a personalized, tailor made approach for them - we have to take his student´s words for it)

They further believe that Ted Wong was doing exactly what bruce lee himself did and what he intended jeet kune do to be used like.

They believe Ted Wong didnt change a single thing but devoted a great deal of his life to analyse bruce lee´s notes, influences, books PLUS his exact movements and habits and execution of techniques and came (through scientific research) to the conclusion, that the exact Bruce Lee way is the physical optimum backed up by science of movement and human anatomy.

To me personally the key to Bruce Lee´s personal Jeet Kune Do doesnt lie solely in the physical execution itself. The physical execution is a guideline, a form that is close to perfect for the intended purpose!!!.

The human factor however will some people have their own truth, because under fighting conditions you cannot always expect to be able to work with perfect form.

I think when in training you can give lets say 90% perfect techniques, on the street, in sparring it ll probably be more like 50% or 40% when shit hits the fan. So training as close to the optimum form as often as possible might lead to the practitioner raising their "efficiency under stress" to 65 or 70%.

To me personally the key to bruce lee´s jeet kune do is in the tactics and strategy necessary to be able to apply the tools at all!

and as far as my understanding of TWJKD goes, which is still limited, most of what makes TWJKD is not the 4 or 5 punches and the 3 or 4 kicks, it´s practising the tactics and strategy in sparring that will result in timing and skill in applying the technique.
So learning good form in technique is essential, yet only the beginning to have a starting point from where to archieve skill in applying the tools with close to perfect form.

To me that is (the late) Bruce Lee´s Jeet Kune Do: correct physical execution of physical technique in combination with the 6 pillars of TWJKD system:

stance
footwork
balance
alignment (postures in relaying force)
distance control
recovery

And that´s what it is. It is not "the gospel truth" in martial arts or the latest word concerning the science of movement.
It is the balance of all above factors, a balance between mobility and stability, a balance between power and recovery, etc.

There is punches more powerful than the straight lead, yet the combination of speed, power, deceptiveness, recovery etc makes it a great first strike.

There is stances more stable than the JKD on guard position, yet it provides a great combination of stability and mobility and alignment for the straight lead and lead leg kicks.

if i would go on, it would become clear that the Bruce Lee JKD was build around the straight lead, stance, hook kick and a set of strategies, tactics and principles. It doesnt change however, that Bruce himself taught other stuff under the "label" JKD in his lifetime and this "general" or "outdated" Jeet Kune Do is still JKD, was conceived by Bruce Lee and should be preserved also, cause it may contain someone´s "truth" diffrent from BLs.

Wilfried

...

[cbJKD Wilfried]

Zitat von SteFanJKD
Lets take some quotes and "wipe out the name JKD" and figure out what we have.

"All --- start and end in On Guard"
"--- is simple direct non-classical"
"--- is not daily increase, but daily decrease, hack away the unessentials"
"--- ultimately is not a matter of pretty technique, but a higly developed personal spirituality and physique
" --- is not to hurt, but one of the avenues i which life opens its secrets to us""
"-- dislikes partialization or localization. Totality can meet all situations"
"--- is the enlightenment. It is a way of life, a movement toward will power and control"
Root of ---; On Guard Footwork, postures in realting force"
"what is ---? Chinese martial art, definitely"
"My --- is something else, more and more I pitty the martial artist that are blinded by their partiality and ignorance

If we put whatever name insted of the --- what would this sytem technically look like? This should give a good pointer according to me what bruce Lee was talking about.

That is a really great post in my opinion. Although the selection of quotes is highly motivated by Stefan´s original point of view, it sums it up pretty well how to get an idea what to look for
Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

Where do you think is something said about a curving line:

I was expalining the Herb jacksom "whipping Jab". Was't there a question about this?

Don't see it.

Well if you explain what you don't see I will answer you the best way I can


Wilfried, It is time for my morning training, but I will get back to your comments. I chose these quotes for a reason. I was actually hoping that someone would choose other quotes and then we would openly share oppinions on ALL quotes from ALL motivations and what we look for.

I hope to see some more quotes where the name "JKD" is left out when I log on the next time.

/SteFan

/SteFan

[SteFanJKD]

I just had to look up this

Zitat von SteFanJKD

I like the Herb jackson punch, but when I read "let your lead hand shoot out loosely and easily, do dont tighten fist untl the moment of impact, your punch should end several inches behind the target" I feel that there are things lacking in Postures in relating force,directness etc..


Why? This sounds for me like the words of Bruce Lee. Why should there be a lack of directness?

My answer to this question was

Zitat:
Zitat von SteFanJKD


This punch starts like a straight Lead, so far so good, but at the moment of impact it takes a curving motion back to On Guard. Bruce said "straight in straight out", returning to the On Guard as fast as possible. To me, and I repeat TO ME a curving line return is not as a direct route as a straight one.


Where do you think is something said about a curving line:

It is the curving line motion in the Whipping Jab that is not "direct" Are you satified with the answer?

Now I am even more late for my training

/SteFan

[Sullivan]

Mal was anderes:

In diesem Zusammenhang ist auch das Buch "Jack Dempsey championship fighting".

Mal nach dem PDF googeln, gibt's im Netz als Download.

In diesem Buch aus den 50er Jahren wird das Prinzip schon beschrieben (vertical fist/45grad, Powerline, Falling Step...).

Ich denke das ist auch für's JKD interessant, nicht nur um mal zu sehen wo Bruce Lee seine Informationen zusammengetragen hat.


Gruß

[angHell]

I was expalining the Herb jacksom "whipping Jab". Was't there a question about this?

Yes.

It is the curving line motion in the Whipping Jab that is not "direct" Are you satified with the answer?

Ok. I don't know anything about the Herb Jackson "whipping jab". But in the quote you wrote I don't see (recognize/understand) anything indirect or curving. You know that "whipping" has nothing to do with a curving line?
I used a translation tool:
piska, piskrapp, gissel, stålvisp, vpiska, spöa, ge stryk, vispa

That was my point, if you know how this punch look like and I don't - maybe you are right. But in the quote I can not understand what you mean.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

"non classical, simple and direct" is also a training mentality.
originally i posted a lengthy text trying to use karate training as an analogy but then my internet crashed

[SteFanJKD]

It seems like TED WONG JEET KUNE DO and Ted Wong´s Jeet Kune Do are used for BRUCE LEE`S JEET KUNE DO and BRUCE LEE`S PERSONAL WAY TO EXPRESS JEET KUNE DO.

Well, I can only speak for myself, not for the rest of the TW Camp. I have decided to call TWJKD for JKD because it follows the principles of JKD. I am not saying that TWJKD is what Bruce Lee would be doing if he was alive today. I am simply sying that I myself believe that this is what Bruce would have been doing if he was alive today.

I have trained with many instructors looking for what I consider JKD is, I found it in TWJKD, the way Ted expresses HIS JKD fits my own expression. I train TWJKD, I perpetuate Ted wongs teachings. it has nothing more to do with Bruce Lee than that he is the founder of our system.

It also seems like they dont call the "original" JKD system, build around 1965, termed in 1967 and and taught e.g. in Bruce Lee´s chinatown school as a general curriculum that contained trapping, grappling, locks, throws etc JEET KUNE DO, they call it JUN FAN GUNG FU.

That is backed up by the certificates of the school simply being rank certificates of the institute, while the JKD ones were only issued to individuals taught by Bruce Lee personally for an extended period of time.

As a TWJKD representative I don't call what was being taught as JKD simply because I belive it is misgiuding when somebody says that they trained JKD and were Bruce Lee's JKD students simply because they trained at his school.. Even dan Inosanto cals what was being taught at the school jun fan Gung Fu, the base for the personal evolution of JKD.

Some people say that they trained JKD in the jun fan Gung Fu insitute with dan Inosanto and this makes them JKD students under Bruce Lee. It clearly states that you had to be personally taught by Bruce Lee to achieve a JKd rank. If we look at the curriculum of his private Training and schools there is a difference. My oppinion is that there is too much Trapping, he had the Kicking sets in his school, even after the name JKD was coined. He also had no reference to JKD on the certificates given at his L.A school. This is why I refer to what was taught privately by Bruce was JKD and what was taught at his school as jun fan Gung Fu.

They further believe that Ted Wong was doing exactly what bruce lee himself did and what he intended jeet kune do to be used like.

They believe Ted Wong didnt change a single thing but devoted a great deal of his life to analyse bruce lee´s notes, influences, books PLUS his exact movements and habits and execution of techniques and came (through scientific research) to the conclusion, that the exact Bruce Lee way is the physical optimum backed up by science of movement and human anatomy.

Again, I can only speak for myself and not the rest of the Ted wong family. I have always seen ted teaching nothing more than what he personally thinks what JKD would look like if Bruce was alive. He does exactly the same as Inosanto, it just happens that ted belives differentli. As I see it neither Inosanto or Ted does something simply "exacltly like Bruce without thinking"

I know that ted has devoted a lot of time to reserach the material of Boxing, Fencing and other material Bruce Left behind. But as far as reseraching and trying to duplicate his movements and habits and saying that he choice the techniques simply because it was the way Bruce did it is nothing I have seen. Ted only listened to the science and theory of JKD, he made his desicions simply on science and theory abpout JKD. As his student the reason why I follow his JKD has nothing to do with the fact that they look like Bruce lee's.

and as far as my understanding of TWJKD goes, which is still limited, most of what makes TWJKD is not the 4 or 5 punches and the 3 or 4 kicks, it´s practising the tactics and strategy in sparring that will result in timing and skill in applying the technique.
So learning good form in technique is essential, yet only the beginning to have a starting point from where to archieve skill in applying the tools with close to perfect form.

To me TWJKD is all about those few specific kicks punches and other techniques he has chosen as his JKD. The tactics, strategy etc he teaches to make this simplicity workable I have seen many JKD teachers teach. What makes teds approach special to me that he keeps his teaching as simple as his JKD, "limited" to these 4-5 punches or 3-4 kicks. He doesn't "fool around" with a lot of techniques simply to "proove apoint", teach his students timing and skill in application.

I hope that I have made a contribution to understanding TWJKD If I have somehow made the wrong impression what TWJKD is alla about.

That was my point, if you know how this punch look like and I don't - maybe you are right. But in the quote I can not understand what you mean.

My mistake, I believed that everyone was familiar with what the whipping Jab looks like, that like a whipslash it involves a curving snapping energy to concentrate the energy.

[cbJKD Wilfried]

interesting how observations differ sometimes.

i have seen other instructors teach more or less the same techniques as TW obviously did, sometimes as an alternative way of execution, but have never seen anyone else besides him and his students teach the (fencing) tactics and strategy to make the "TWJKD"-techniques work without having to "go back" and employ a boxing/kickboxing or wing chun mindset at times.

What attracts me to TWJKD is that it not only imitates the movements of Bruce Lee and leaves you guessing whether you could be the "1 of the 10.000" that can make JKD work, but it actually contains the "how to" as well as the "when to".

When i saw P.Chan for the first time, i saw for the first time ever how to fight with ONLY these few techniques, delievered from a fencing based on guard, applied with the mindset of a fencer and how exactly the footwork relates to that.

That´s what made me a believer, that this actually works and one can train to use it (Bruce Lee´s personal way of applying
Jeet Kune Do) without needing the backup of boxing/kickboxing and wing chun be necessary for when shit hits the fan and you cant afford to play BL anymore.

That excerpt gives a small glimpse and i have been told that Sifu Ted moved exactly the same way when he was in his prime.

YouTube - TWJKD Tulsa 2010 Day1 Highlights

I already asked if victor will do a highlight clip featuring Patrick like he did one with Bob and Bill and Rodney, but it seems he hasnt got around to it yet.
EDIT:

Concerning the use of terms: i respect and understand why you among others call the actual curriculum or the art taught at the schools JFGF to avoid confusion with his later developements.

However Bruce Lee himself called that material JKD. So it is like i said, an agreement to use the term in a specific way, to use TWJKD for Bruce lee´s personal way of fighting and term Bruce Lee´s Jeet Kune Do program that was taught at this time in his schools "Jun Fan Gung Fu" while the printed training outlines by Bruce Lee that contained a progression of training and were handed out to his Chinatown School students as well as his Oakland JKD students, and the outlines he gave to Taky Kimura were labelled: "Basic techniques of JEET KUNE DO" and "Six week lesson plan for Jeet Kune Do", the last one being dated September 19th, 1967. It was even bearing the Institute´s name and adress, so there is no mistake that Bruce lee himself did not distinguish Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do and did not say, indicate or write that the program taught at the school was "JFGF" opposed to "JKD" that he only taught privately.

What is true however is, that the "JKD certificates" were only issued to his private students, while the rank certificates, WHICH MANY DONT KNOW!!!!!!!! dont indicate a rank reflecting skill in JKD, but how long a student had been training at the institute, at least in the LA chinatown school. Only the instructor (inosanto) was made rank 3 right away, and he promoted students according to their (written down) attendance at the institute.

Wilfried

[SteFanJKD]

interesting how observations differ sometimes.

Yes, and this is how it should be in JKD and here it is were you and I are different

What attracts me to TWJKD is that it not only imitates the movements of Bruce Lee and leaves you guessing whether you could be the "1 of the 10.000" that can make JKD work, but it actually contains the "how to" as well as the "when to".

What attracts me to TWJKD has nothing to do with imitating Bruce Lee. If I was intrested in TWJKD and only see what imitates Bruce Lee I would call myself a jun fan JKD practitioner.

I train TWJKD becuase I felt that what ted Wongs says makes sense to me, he shares my point of view what JKD is alla about. I have said it before. I started to train with Ted because of my intrest in Bruce Lee and his JKD. It did not take me long before my intrest in ted Wong and his JKD was what I was intrested in.

So when somebody says that that Ted Wong is simply imitating Bruce Lee movements I must honestly say that I have a realy difficult time to say that I respect their point of view.

I have never trained with Bruce lee so I respect that there are different points of view on his teachings. but when it comes to Ted, my teacher, I hope that I am not alone to be a little bit offended by somebody saying that Ted imitates Bruce Lee.

To me JKD is 100% about Ted Wong. Bruce lee is the founder of JKD, but I follow Ted Wong 100%, TWJKD is to me his own truth in JKD, it is a free choice, it has nothing to do with Bruce Lee, it simply is that Both ted and Bruce share the same truth, and I found my truth in Ted wongs guidance.

/SteFan